:h:
I was especially intrigued to find that is was leaglized in connection to the legalization of homosexuality.
*Originally posted by reverendflash *
**6th largest in the nation?
What the heck are you smoking?
I know for a fact, that :
New York city, NY *… 7,322,564 308.9 23,705
2 Los Angeles city, CA… 3,485,398 469.3 7,427
3 Chicago city, IL… 2,783,726 227.2 12,252
4 Houston city, TX… 1,630,553 539.9 3,020
5 Philadelphia city, PA… 1,585,577 135.1 11,736
6 San Diego city, CA *… 1,110,549 324.0 3,428
7 Detroit city, MI… 1,027,974 138.7 7,411
8 Dallas city, TX… 1,006,877 342.4 2,941
and that is just from 1990, I didn’t bother to find 2000 census. I’ll even bet that Phoenix doesn’t even make the top 10 of the country…
I haven’t even listed Las Vegas (the largest growing community in the nation for the last 10 years), or San Jose, the 2nd largest City in CA, or the in the top 10 of the largest economies in the world…
Yes, I’ve been to Phoenix, Austin, Ventura. They are all piss-ant, small town, Redneck populations who think they are in a Metropolis, but would freak if they actually had to live in a “City.” Most of the people who “live in these places” actually live in suburbs, with lots of room, no homelessness, and lots of room to whine about what happens in real Cities.
Amazing how Rednecks who live in Redneckville always think thier city is liberal, and they are the voice of reason.
thanks upu, you hit the nail on the head.
But then again, ignorance is the main motivation for Lizzie. Once he makes up his narrow mind, it stays that way.
Hooray for ignorance Lizzie. Keep it up. I’d hate to see an epiphany come…
Rev **
Maybe you should have looked at the 2000 census. http://www.travel2phoenix.com/aboutindex.html And, I use to live in Las Vegas and my father still does. Want to keep going?
Come on Rev, we were civil for a long time here, why do you always have to start getting pissy???
And, you still haven’t shown me a single scinerio of a homeless person that can’t get off the street with things that are curently available to them.
And, I give to all kinds of non-pollitical charities such as the American Heart Association, St. Vincent De Paul, and the Salvation Army. A person can be compassionate and giving while being skeptical. You can try to place me in your view of redneck small town uncompassionate people, but I assure you I do not fit.
Lizzie, I am putting you on ignore.
you obviously do not know how to discuss a point without getting all personal.
Do you live in an urban setting?
How many homeless people have you talked to?
How many homeless people does Phoenix have?
Are they a hotbed for homeless?
do you live DT, where they live?
you see, your statement is so full of narrow minded Bigotted Redneck mentality, that you choose to pick a fight about where you used to live, instead of actually defending your STUPID and IGNORANT statement.
now that is not name calling. It is a fact that your comment was stupid and ignorant, which can be difficult to do at the same time…
by Lizzie, have fun.
Rev
he doesn’t know how to argue a point. He just picks out one word out of all the others, and goes off on a tangent.
I’m glad he’s happy, and likes coming to kirupa. I’m just not going to waste any more energy on his hypocritical arse.
Rev
nope.
I don’t waste my time with people who live in ignorance, and like it.
Rev
Amazing how Rednecks who live in Redneckville always think thier city is liberal, and they are the voice of reason.
But then again, ignorance is the main motivation for Lizzie. Once he makes up his narrow mind, it stays that way.
Thanks for the support Phil 
You are correct, what I say is never out of malice.
Rev, It might be hard to sway my opinion, but ask youself this. How many times have you changed your opinion talking to me? So are you narrow minded too?
This thread may have gotten off track, but that is because Rev brought in another dimension to it. He brought up that money would be better spent on the homeless. Which I believe is a perfectly reasonable thing to bring up when we are discussing if animals are worth protecting. I countered his argument saying that people can help themselves, even homeless people, animals cannot. A dog cannot check itself into a shelter for abuse victims like a person can. I continuted that thought with homeless people are there because they choose to be. I have asked several times for a scinerio showing how I am wrong. What homeless person cannot get off the streets that would possibly need the money we have set asside to rescue abused animals?
Look at the quote above…how should I have read that? Should that not have upset me? Was it intended to change my mind or just anger me? I reacted to the implication stated above with proof that I do not nor have I ever lived in a small city with exception of when I was stationed in Dover DE. I gave evidence that Phoenix is the 6th largest city in the nation. Rev, then you decided we should argue about that. Who is getting threads off focus? I right now live downtown Austin. Of all the cities of any size I have been to, this one has the most visible homeless community. They clean shaven guy I was talking about stands at an on ramp not 1/10th of a mile from my house. There are homless people on virtually every freeway on ramp, some have more than one. I have seen my share of homless people. I have yet to see one that I don’t believe couldn’t get off the street. Not one that I believe if I put myself in their situation that I could not overcome. Maybe I am wrong, please again show me one that cannot. Give me real information, not just that I am a narrow minded readneck.
Another aside, I do mainly post in the ordered forum on kirupaforums. I do so because this place has the best balance of all opinions. I have tried posting on maily lib boards, but it is not fun to constantly defend yourself more than your position (kind of like what I feel is going on right now). I have tried mainly conservative boards, but that is no fun. Preaching to the choir and not learning anything new. Contrary to what others might think, I don’t spend my life posting on all kinds of boards to pis$ people off. I come here to talk opinion and no where else. It is so balanced here that I love it. Man, look at Phil’s 9/11 thread. I don’t think it could get anymore balanced than that. That is probably the most opinionated thread on all sides, yet stays relativly civil for the most part. It is a model all threads should be based on. Phil, I know you have worked hard to keep it that way, and I want you to know it has not gone unnoticed.
Now, can we continue the thread, or have we concluded everuthing that needs saying…
Thank you for quoting that blind, rev is on my blocked list, so I can’t see his posts anymore. but I guess this is a good time to restate my…
FUCK YOU REV
statement.
I’m not the first to say what I did, and I’m sure I won’t be the last.
Why Lizzie decided to land here, when he obviously has no intentions of actually learning anything, and he has no interest in Flash, Photoshop, etc, is beyond me.
I have a few suspicions, but that is all.
Rev
no need, I’m out, and he’s on ignore
Rev
*Originally posted by BlueLine *
**Thank you for quoting that blind, rev is on my blocked list, so I can’t see his posts anymore. but I guess this is a good time to restate my…
FUCK YOU REV
statement. **
bye!
Rev
He’s gonna have a hard time replying…
Rev
Why Lizzie decided to land here, when he obviously has no intentions of actually learning anything, and he has no interest in Flash, Photoshop, etc, is beyond me.
If you check my first posts here, they were all Flash. That is how I found this place over a year ago. I only recently discovered the Ordered forum a few months ago. But, again why are we even going through this? We had a perfectly good thread going on, and all this happened.
Phil, I appreciate all you have said. I know I was on your list the other day, and I don’t like having enemies. That is why I have PMed both you and Rev many times to douce the flames that have sparked up. I may be young, but I have experienced much. For the record in case anyone cares, I am 26. I will be 27 in 34 days. However in that time, I have joined, served and been honorably discharged from the US Airforce. I put myself through college and earned my bachelors degree in Computer Information Systems. I have 3 sons, 6, 2, and 8months. And, I own my own company. I have traveled to every state in the union by car (not just laned in all the airports). I have traveled to 16 countries outside the US. I have managed collections departments for major credit card companies. I have flipped burgeres at McDonald’s. I have worked for the biggest insurance brokerage company in the world building web based medical trending applications. I worked with people there on projects that died in the WTC. I come from a broken home where my dad left when I was 9. My mother raised my brother and I in poverty. I have seen drug raids on crack houses right out my bedroom window. I have lived through a drive by shooting. My brother who I love very much is addicted to crystal meth and no matter how hard I try, I cannot help him. I have 2 nieces with 2 different mothers that he hasn’t seen in months. What more experience do I need? I will be sure to run out and experience it.
And, you still haven’t shown me a single scinerio of a homeless person that can’t get off the street with things that are curently available to them.
you want a senario… ok here’s one.
A man has a family and kids, he’s never great with getting his bills paid on time, but always manages to make ends meet. Never having much in life, he gets in on .com’s during the 90’s rush and loses everything he has. He turns to the bars to help him cope with his depression, but alcohol only increases it, preventing him from keeping fit and clean enough to go on interviews. Some time passes, still out of work the family gets by on the wife’s income, barely paying the mortgage, and forced to let other things slip… credit card bills at 12% interest stack up. Eventually the house is taken from them. Without a home, the wife takes to living with relatives, but they wont take him in because A) he’s a bum, having lost his job, and B) he’s a drunk. It’s about this time that the wife says, unless you clean up your act, I’m leaving and taking the kids with me. Homeless, depressed and on the verge of losing his family the man wises up. He kicks the bottle going completely straight.
Here we have a man without anything. His cloths are torn and dirty, his support base is living elsewhere. Best case senario he might be able to shower, shave, and brush at the local YMCA. That still doesn’t help him get cloths that are appropriate, or maybe a hair cut. These all cost money… and these days they cost more and more. A social program would help this man. He would have a place to stay, semi permanently. He would get some basic good cloths to wear to work, and he would get a case worker with whom he could talk about anything from work problems to his depression.
People who are offered no help, are guerentied to mooch off the system, that’s a fact. At least with programs in place you can help some of the people. The point is not to get rid of the programs, but to strictly enforce the rules which prevent mooches from using the system.
*Originally posted by upuaut *
**you want a senario… ok here’s one.
A man has a family and kids, he’s never great with getting his bills paid on time, but always manages to make ends meet. Never having much in life, he gets in on .com’s during the 90’s rush and loses everything he has. He turns to the bars to help him cope with his depression, but alcohol only increases it, preventing him from keeping fit and clean enough to go on interviews. Some time passes, still out of work the family gets by on the wife’s income, barely paying the mortgage, and forced to let other things slip… credit card bills at 12% interest stack up. Eventually the house is taken from them. Without a home, the wife takes to living with relatives, but they wont take him in because A) he’s a bum, having lost his job, and B) he’s a drunk. It’s about this time that the wife says, unless you clean up your act, I’m leaving and taking the kids with me. Homeless, depressed and on the verge of losing his family the man wises up. He kicks the bottle going completely straight.
Here we have a man without anything. His cloths are torn and dirty, his support base is living elsewhere. Best case senario he might be able to shower, shave, and brush at the local YMCA. That still doesn’t help him get cloths that are appropriate, or maybe a hair cut. These all cost money… and these days they cost more and more. A social program would help this man. He would have a place to stay, semi permanently. He would get some basic good cloths to wear to work, and he would get a case worker with whom he could talk about anything from work problems to his depression.
People who are offered no help, are guerentied to mooch off the system, that’s a fact. At least with programs in place you can help some of the people. The point is not to get rid of the programs, but to strictly enforce the rules which prevent mooches from using the system. **
Hey can go to the Salvation Army and they will dress him in interview cloths, and give him a place to sleep and clean up for interviews. They will also assist with acohol counciling. Also, he can check himself into a half way house while he is getting clean from the addiction and pay very little in rent while he gets on his feet.
Blindlizard ,
No one, (or at least I think no one) disagrees that technically there are programs to help people. And if one really wants to, there are ways to achieve lots of things through current social programs, government grants and loans. Maybe not as much as in Canada or some other European countries, but we do have social programs in acted to help people get out. But, the biggest problem is psychological. Rational people will find a way out, but when you’re psychologically broken down, you can’t make rational decisions. That’s why, some people ask me, what will you do if you where on the street, I tell them, I won’t be, never, or at least not in my current state of mind. But if some psychological blow alters that than yes, I can be. I don’t know if you ever felt that no matter what you do you will fail, or you ever been addicted to a substance so much that mentally you where such a mess it scared you. And take it from me, once your there, there is very little you can do. That’s why the human race is so powerful, as a society we help each other out, where alone we will fail.
So, I am glad there are people like you, if we ever bring in new social programs we need to carefully analyze them so that people cannot simply take advantage ala Swedish welfare abuse (check it out, its ridiculous). But, doesn’t mean we should stop introducing new programs, because at worst we waste money, where as if it works we could save lives and communities.
PS. This is also the reason for my political view, where we need both liberals and conservatives, and if one is missing, the nation because very imbalanced and as a result weak.
*Originally posted by RussianBeer *
**Blindlizard ,
No one, (or at least I think no one) disagrees that technically there are programs to help people. And if one really wants to, there are ways to achieve lots of things through current social programs, government grants and loans. Maybe not as much as in Canada or some other European countries, but we do have social programs in acted to help people get out. But, the biggest problem is psychological. Rational people will find a way out, but when you’re psychologically broken down, you can’t make rational decisions. That’s why, some people ask me, what will you do if you where on the street, I tell them, I won’t be, never, or at least not in my current state of mind. But if some psychological blow alters that than yes, I can be. I don’t know if you ever felt that no matter what you do you will fail, or you ever been addicted to a substance so much that mentally you where such a mess it scared you. And take it from me, once your there, there is very little you can do. That’s why the human race is so powerful, as a society we help each other out, where alone we will fail.
So, I am glad there are people like you, if we ever bring in new social programs we need to carefully analyze them so that people cannot simply take advantage ala Swedish welfare abuse (check it out, its ridiculous). But, doesn’t mean we should stop introducing new programs, because at worst we waste money, where as if it works we could save lives and communities.
PS. This is also the reason for my political view, where we need both liberals and conservatives, and if one is missing, the nation because very imbalanced and as a result weak. **
I am not the one talking about wasting money. I said we have enough money to take care of abused animals, and our homless. I do agree with you, state of mind is a big factor in what a person does, but I don’t feel that it is anyones responsability to make sure anyone feels good. There is a point where personal responsiblity needs to take hold. I am not saying that people on the streets need to just get out of the situation, what i am saying is there are plenty of outlets available currently that homless people can use to get help. Plenty of organizations and government programs designed to make then feel better about themselves. But no matter how much money and programs you throw at the problem you cannot make a person act.
what we are saying is that a person without self esteme, without mental stability, without a support base, cannot always make the decisions necessary to fascillitate escape from the streets. Thanks Russian, for stating that so well.
You asked for an example, but then you said that anyone can do this and this and this. Here are my problems with those responses.
“Hey can go to the Salvation Army and they will dress him in interview cloths, and give him a place to sleep and clean up for interviews.”
The salvation army, dispite it’s size and stability, cannot handle the large amount of homeless we have. In addition, it’s a private organization supported through government grants and private donations. There is no guarenty that it will be around in the future. It’s great that they help people now. I won’t disparage the organization… I just don’t see it as a viable solution for the entire problem. It’s like a bandage patching one hole in a dam, while the other holes continue to leak.
“They will also assist with acohol counciling. Also, he can check himself into a half way house while he is getting clean from the addiction and pay very little in rent while he gets on his feet.”
They will clean him and feed him for 6 months, buying him more than a weeks worth of cloths, of a style and fassion befitting todays workplace? I don’t think so sir. Sure they will be set up, but not well. Certainly not well enough to compete in a market place with others who may not be as shabby as they.
The average financial analysist estimates it takes 6 months in todays economy to find work. The system is not designed, and never has been, to accomodate the current number of unemployed, looking for work for 6 months. (see Suzy Ormond)
My point is not that the homeless have no solutions. Just that the current solutions are not enough. Do we have enough money to do it as a society? Sure, that is, until we realize that 95% of the weath is in the hands of 2% That 2% isn’t giving up the cash for homeless. They have to pay their maids and poolhands.
That 2% has a right to their money. If I have 2 cars and you have none, so I have to give you one? No, I worked hard for my stuff, if you want it go work for it. If you have a problem what the top 2% does, then work your way up there and you can distribute your money however you want.
Sure the Salvation Army may not give them “everything”, that is where work comes into play. They can get enough from them or some other civic organization to get started, the rest is up to them. YOur single guy up there whos wife left him could survive working at McDonals. I don’t think he needs stylish cloths to work there. And, they will give him uniforms to ware at work. He only needs an outfit to interview in.
That 2% has a right to their money. If I have 2 cars and you have none, so I have to give you one? No, I worked hard for my stuff, if you want it go work for it. If you have a problem what the top 2% does, then work your way up there and you can distribute your money however you want.
We are not arguing capitalism vs communism. Someone said that we “have enough money”. I contend that we do not have enough money so long as it is necessary to distribute the money in it’s current manner in order to maintain our economy. I said nothing about who was deserving or not of that money. Don’t argue that which is not evident please. If someone can come up with proof that we “have enough money” to both handle the homeless and all the stray pets in the world, please bring it forward.
Sure the Salvation Army may not give them “everything”, that is where work comes into play. They can get enough from them or some other civic organization to get started, the rest is up to them. YOur single guy up there whos wife left him could survive working at McDonals. I don’t think he needs stylish cloths to work there. And, they will give him uniforms to ware at work. He only needs an outfit to interview in.
Not true sir. Work is more than jsut what they allow you to work in, or what they give you. It has social context and emotional impact to be considered. A person who worked for 10 years as a manager of IT services will not be able to function properly in McDonads at all. Believe me, I know my managers they are dumb as a brick when it comes to anything other than their specialty. People looking for jobs are looking for jobs that they know how to do. You’re example is fine as long as once again, we stereotype all homeless as underskilled laborers. The majority of illegal aliens may be unskilled (which isnt’ even true if you’ve seen any the Mexican crews working on stone laying) but the majority of those out of work are not unskilled at all. Lastly, if everyone who was unemployed did end up working at low level positions, those possitions would dry up very quickly.
You will never even hope to see anyone’s side of this arguement unless you lose those preconcieved notions you have about the homeless.
And you still haven’t come up with an answer to the question, "what about the people that the salvation army can’t handle, and or what would happen if the SA were not there, ie they went out of business?
You cannot rely upon the good nature of private organizations to do this job. It is the job of every American to promote the economy or suffer the consiquences. That is done by getting skilled people good jobs.
I hope you’re homeless and depressed some time Liz just so you can walk in someone else’s shoes. It would probebly do you a world of good.
