# Nokrev - Fight Me \>:( **URL:** \ **Category:** random\ **Created:** [April 13, 2006, 9:40am UTC](https://forum.kirupa.com/t/nokrev-fight-me/185426 "2006-04-13T09:40:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![soulty](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex011/user_avatar/forum.kirupa.com/soulty/32/105_2.png) [@soulty](https://forum.kirupa.com/u/soulty)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2006, 5:33pm UTC](https://forum.kirupa.com/t/nokrev-fight-me/185426/21 "2006-04-13T17:33:50Z")
to my undestanding the web’s prime purpose is to provide users with quick access to information. Secondary to that you have what i call animated brochure sites that use flash to promote a company/service. Now with CSS being a big part of the new era of compliency if you want your site’s information to be available to everyone including those with disabilities then you will need to have to make your site standards compliant, so its not only a geeky thing to have. Also remember that css is basically the method of ‘styling’ your information, the information is most important. If you take css away you still have that information, if you take flash away then your left with nothing. That information should be accessible in all medias, future technologies like mobiles, current pda’s and any other fancy new toy that can access the internet. I agree flash is going to be awesome on things like mobile phones but its not practical, If you want the information with the minimal of fuss flash can’t provide that for you, yet. In the end it’s not about one should be used over the other, its really a purpose driven decision to use either flash or css or both. ---
**Author:** ![Jeff\_Wheeler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@Jeff\_Wheeler](https://forum.kirupa.com/u/Jeff_Wheeler)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2006, 5:50pm UTC](https://forum.kirupa.com/t/nokrev-fight-me/185426/22 "2006-04-13T17:50:36Z")
I agree with many points y’all have made. Flash can do great things, but as other have said, it’s overused, misused, and often flat-out disgusting. The amazing Flash sites don’t follow the real purpose of the web, as soulty put it: provide easy, simple access to information. Ack! I’ve got to go again… I really want to write more, but I have to leave. ---
**Author:** ![955](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/9/4bbf92/32.png) [@955](https://forum.kirupa.com/u/955)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2006, 5:52pm UTC](https://forum.kirupa.com/t/nokrev-fight-me/185426/23 "2006-04-13T17:52:23Z")
> [@prstudio](#): > > simplebits is one of the ugliest sites ive seen… You can’t have seen much of the web then 😉 Sure, simplebits may not be to your taste, but you can see that the guy that wrote it is at least partly competent at design… ---
**Author:** ![matthewjumps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/49beb7/32.png) [@matthewjumps](https://forum.kirupa.com/u/matthewjumps)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2006, 6:11pm UTC](https://forum.kirupa.com/t/nokrev-fight-me/185426/24 "2006-04-13T18:11:16Z")
i wouldnt call simplebits ugly - but it doesnt excite me in the least design-wise…some people seem to confuse the fact that a site validates properly to mean its brilliant design… ---
**Author:** ![Sliker\_Hawk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d26b3c/32.png) [@Sliker\_Hawk](https://forum.kirupa.com/u/Sliker_Hawk)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2006, 6:18pm UTC](https://forum.kirupa.com/t/nokrev-fight-me/185426/25 "2006-04-13T18:18:21Z")
Well, the new simplebits design _is_ pretty bad. Anyway, the internet is a means of presenting information (as Nokrev said) and I really don’t want to see long, usually annoying animations just to get to a different part of a site. And there’s loading too - CSS loads and renders in parts while Flash has to preload everything, and on a large site, that can be very annoying. As… Um… Someone else said, aswell, CSS is much easier to develop for when you’re using databases, or any server-side script in general. With Flash, ohhh no, you have to work out how to do it, then you have to make sure it’s all presented correctly and in the right order, or it’ll get overridden by another peice of information you want to render, etc. I prefer CSS, myself. Flash for headers and other cool things, but not for websites, unless it’s done properly. ---
**Author:** ![SeiferTim](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex011/user_avatar/forum.kirupa.com/seifertim/32/188_2.png) [@SeiferTim](https://forum.kirupa.com/u/SeiferTim)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2006, 6:25pm UTC](https://forum.kirupa.com/t/nokrev-fight-me/185426/26 "2006-04-13T18:25:19Z")
This is all I have to say about CSS Design: [http://www.csszengarden.com/?cssfile=/178/178.css&page=0](http://www.csszengarden.com/?cssfile=/178/178.css&page=0) ---
**Author:** ![thats\_all\_folks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e0b2c6/32.png) [@thats\_all\_folks](https://forum.kirupa.com/u/thats_all_folks)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2006, 6:29pm UTC](https://forum.kirupa.com/t/nokrev-fight-me/185426/27 "2006-04-13T18:29:49Z")
I’ve been trying to go back to the days of sending information by pigeons. I tell my clients pigeons are cheaper and never crash, this will solve the PC/Mac and Flash/CSS feud, if we all just stop using the web and bought a pigeon, things would be simpler. ---
**Author:** ![matthewjumps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/49beb7/32.png) [@matthewjumps](https://forum.kirupa.com/u/matthewjumps)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2006, 6:31pm UTC](https://forum.kirupa.com/t/nokrev-fight-me/185426/28 "2006-04-13T18:31:44Z")
> Flash for headers and other \*\*cool \*\*things > yea - and css for presenting info… o and dont worry [SeiferTim](http://www.kirupa.com/forum/member.php?u=3829) ive seen loads of css zen garden - none come close to the eye-catching, attention grabbing power of well used flash ---
**Author:** ![ramie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/edb3f5/32.png) [@ramie](https://forum.kirupa.com/u/ramie)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2006, 6:36pm UTC](https://forum.kirupa.com/t/nokrev-fight-me/185426/29 "2006-04-13T18:36:02Z")
Any developer worth his salt knows the right tool for the right job, there is no debate as far as Im concerned, css is great, flash is great even .net has its place lol… end of. ---
**Author:** ![DDD](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc348/32.png) [@DDD](https://forum.kirupa.com/u/DDD)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2006, 6:38pm UTC](https://forum.kirupa.com/t/nokrev-fight-me/185426/30 "2006-04-13T18:38:39Z")
> [@thats all folks](#): > > …if we all just stop using the web and bought a pigeon, things would be simpler. But then MS would try to domesticate pigeons and sell those with MS logos on them. Then Steve Jobs would come thru with steroid induced pigeons which fly faster and dont get eaten by cats. Then of course the open source folks would release pigeons into the wild with no guarantees for people to use. So in the end it will be the same thing, only with pigeons ---
**Author:** ![ramie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/edb3f5/32.png) [@ramie](https://forum.kirupa.com/u/ramie)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2006, 6:42pm UTC](https://forum.kirupa.com/t/nokrev-fight-me/185426/31 "2006-04-13T18:42:36Z")
A pigeon framework would be cool… “Pigeons on Rails”… make a pigeon [COLOR=Silver]fl[/COLOR]app in 15 minutes ---
**Author:** ![hl1](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex011/user_avatar/forum.kirupa.com/hl1/32/849_2.png) [@hl1](https://forum.kirupa.com/u/hl1)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2006, 6:44pm UTC](https://forum.kirupa.com/t/nokrev-fight-me/185426/32 "2006-04-13T18:44:54Z")
Think is I couldn’t care less about CSS or Flash. What side does that put me on? ---
**Author:** ![955](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/9/4bbf92/32.png) [@955](https://forum.kirupa.com/u/955)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2006, 6:46pm UTC](https://forum.kirupa.com/t/nokrev-fight-me/185426/33 "2006-04-13T18:46:27Z")
Interesting that you should mention pigeons… ftp://ftp.rfc-editor.org/in-notes/rfc1149.txt ---
**Author:** ![matthewjumps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/49beb7/32.png) [@matthewjumps](https://forum.kirupa.com/u/matthewjumps)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2006, 6:46pm UTC](https://forum.kirupa.com/t/nokrev-fight-me/185426/34 "2006-04-13T18:46:32Z")
:lol: ---
**Author:** ![musicwithcolors](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a8b319/32.png) [@musicwithcolors](https://forum.kirupa.com/u/musicwithcolors)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2006, 7:26pm UTC](https://forum.kirupa.com/t/nokrev-fight-me/185426/35 "2006-04-13T19:26:01Z")
different tools for different jobs. exactly. you really dont want to dig a hole with a baseball bat. just as you dont want to make a news site with flash. > [@.harish](#): > > Think is I couldn’t care less about CSS or Flash. What side does that put me on? i think that makes you scandinavian 😃 ---
**Author:** ![SeiferTim](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex011/user_avatar/forum.kirupa.com/seifertim/32/188_2.png) [@SeiferTim](https://forum.kirupa.com/u/SeiferTim)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2006, 7:54pm UTC](https://forum.kirupa.com/t/nokrev-fight-me/185426/36 "2006-04-13T19:54:18Z")
> [@matthewjumps](#): > > yea - and css for presenting info… > > o and dont worry [SeiferTim](http://www.kirupa.com/forum/member.php?u=3829) ive seen loads of css zen garden - none come close to the eye-catching, attention grabbing power of well used flash I don’t think Flash is “attention grabbing” at all. Don’t get me wrong, I _love_ Flash, I just happen to think that it’s overused, and rarely used intellegently. Kirupa’s Front page, and NewGround’s layout, for instance, are very good examples of how Flash _should_ be used. Making a site that is basically a background with a Flash movie embeded in it, IMO, is usually in bad taste. There are exceptions. My goal, once I have some time to work on it, is to come up with a site that is informative, and looks great, using a careful blend of HTML, PHP, CSS, Flash, and JavaScript to give the visitor a wonderful experience, but still be 100% readable, and understandable if you were to disable everything but the straight HTML - such as using AdBlocker to block all images, SWFs, etc, and using Firefox to disable all CSS formatting. To me, that would be the perfect site design. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://canada1.discourse-cdn.com/flex011/uploads/kirupa/original/3X/6/2/621e5c11736f46532526e61be85940af4230f3e5.png) [@system](https://forum.kirupa.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2006, 8:00pm UTC](https://forum.kirupa.com/t/nokrev-fight-me/185426/37 "2006-04-13T20:00:01Z")
eh simply put simplebits isn’t design - it’s what happens when coders try to design…i know both sides of the fence i’ve been around enough - but in the world of real design - his style won’t fly that far - too many blog templates out there ☹ ---
**Author:** ![matthewjumps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/49beb7/32.png) [@matthewjumps](https://forum.kirupa.com/u/matthewjumps)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2006, 8:01pm UTC](https://forum.kirupa.com/t/nokrev-fight-me/185426/38 "2006-04-13T20:01:00Z")
and i share that goal 100% - and i dont like all flash sites that much either - like u say - a blend of HTML/CSS/Flash, with PHP and JS as needed… and yes sites should maintain there usability even if css/images/swfs are off… ---
**Author:** ![ramie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/edb3f5/32.png) [@ramie](https://forum.kirupa.com/u/ramie)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2006, 8:14pm UTC](https://forum.kirupa.com/t/nokrev-fight-me/185426/39 "2006-04-13T20:14:24Z")
simplebits is a perfect example of the current trend in webdesign, that whole web 2.0 crap, its nice don’t get me wrong, I like that odeo/basecamp style look, but as stated it wont last, remember tech style, grunge, heavy duty photoshop layouts, I say roll on the next bandwagon so I can jump right on it with the rest of you, lol 😑 ---
**Author:** ![SeiferTim](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex011/user_avatar/forum.kirupa.com/seifertim/32/188_2.png) [@SeiferTim](https://forum.kirupa.com/u/SeiferTim)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2006, 8:14pm UTC](https://forum.kirupa.com/t/nokrev-fight-me/185426/40 "2006-04-13T20:14:50Z")
Here’s another thing that I just thought about: If you have content inside of a Flash movie, unless you have a copy of all the text in your movie somewhere in your HTML - most likely hidden somewhere - Search Engines won’t be able to get at the content in your Movie, which means that it might be harder for people to get to your site if they are searching for relevant topics. Also, most browsers have options and features that can act on the text of a page in specific ways - using Alt-F to search the page, or changing font sizes if the text is too big/small, or even in some cases having the computer read the page out-loud. Also, with Firefox’s Extensions, people have (or should have) more freedom with the pages they pull up. I know there’s an extension out there that lets you right-click a word to pull up a definition of it in a new tab, or translate whole pages of text. As neat as having text-boxes in Flash full of text, and awesome animating scroll-buttons will make your page look, I think it’s a horrible trade-off to the functionality that normal text that the browser (and other programs) can interpret. Just another of my $0.02 😛 [Previous page](https://forum.kirupa.com/t/nokrev-fight-me/185426.md?page=1) [Next page](https://forum.kirupa.com/t/nokrev-fight-me/185426.md?page=3)