Rights as humans

I see where some people come off and say that we should go after Korea first, seeing as they are actively producing nukes (or trying), but doesn’t anyone see that it should be our duty as humans to stop all of the gassing and the rapes. Forget the political stuff, humans, no matter how poor or rich, should not or ever be faced with the fear of murder, rape, and/or torture for speaking their mind. When Sadam’s Son-in-Laws came to the US and told us the secrets that inevitably lead to our searches for chemical weapons, he told them that they would be able to return to their families. Upon their return, they were killed immediately.

No. I will more than gladly go to arms so that no one else would have to suffer if I am needed.

Those 13 stripes are more important that man life can ever be.

North Korea is most definately a different kettle of fish.

The Iraqies while once having the most sophisticated military in the middle east (thanks mostly to the US and USSR all attempting to get their alliance), now they have very old (in military terms) equipment and most of their army/airforce are poorly trained. Look at what opposition they are putting up there though. And no one thought they would be able to let alone want to.

Now, on the other side of the coin…

North korea. One of the worlds most capable military forces. Sophisticated, well trained, MILLIONS of soldiers. An air force with the latest (as well as the oldest I might add) jets, a navy that is comparable to other modern navies and capability and even the WANT to use its ballistic missiles to attack overseas allies of the US if not the US itself.

Hrm… let me think. If I was the US I would also be trying to stay the hell out of North Korea. Not least because China is an ally of North Korea. And if you think China wont come to the aid of North Korea if they were attacked, think again… they have indirectly and DIRECTLY come to the aid of their traditional allies when they were fighting the United States (and their allies) on three different occasions in the last 50 years.

And if anyone is the US’s counterpart on Military capability, I would suggest it was China - arguably the worlds next superpower.

Can’t put too much more to that …
…but also, strategically speaking, we allready have a major presence in the gulf/middle east region and this area has more multi-purpose motivations - so - it is more efficient to deal with this now and get it behind us before dealing with such a big fish as N.Korea.

Besides, if while tackeling the Koreans, wouldn’t have SadMan have found more ambitious opportunity for his particular brand of nastiness while our hands were tied ?

Yeah going after the oppression is a good idea…
And its good that Amercians bleive that they are doing the right thing, but the problem comes up when the USA hasn’t examined the past or hasnt looked at the reasons.

Even the Iraq conflict… we can start in the 1920’s
When the Ottoman empire was broken up, the Brits havent created 3 seperate states for Iraq,(Shiiat, Kurd etc…) but one so there has been always tension.

Then Iraq had a nationalistic goverment, until another party with Saddam revolted and gained power… and then Saddam was on the was on the CIA payroll! And when Iran took hostages from the embassy, we patted him on the back and said go get them buddy!

We gave him all kind of weapons, and when he abused and gassed his own people… we looked the other way…

Now all of a sudden we recall all the things he did with our weapons, and to the world this seems kind of hipocryte…
The world looks back at this and wonders why only now have we brought this up…

And korea isnt a sofisticated as people think,

Their main battletank is a t-54, which where produced in Russian in 1947!! And some upgrated forms of that tank…
Their Airforce are outdate 1950’s planes, and they dont produce any of their own…
Their Navy are basicaly small patrol boats… who just guard their coast…
The only thing formidable about their country is their SOF and AA, but whith those things in mind, the USA can still target the problem quite easily…

The only thing they really can relly, is on mass of conscripts…
who arent as reliable as proffesional soldeirs…

*Originally posted by Phil Jayhan *
**Do not underestimate your enemy…Take heed lest ye phall and all that stuph… **

…something that I hope US forces have finally learned. I feel that also, even thought the US may possess superior technology, many times they often discount the valour and heart that the enemy posesses… In their eyes they are the oppressed, and are simply defending what they believe to be right.

Yeah,
But remember… the CIA knows, this… the generals over there know this…

while their air defences are somewhat capable, they can still be destroyed easily with percision strike… They will aslo have to chose between civilian and military targets… and both will turn people against them…
But if the US and Skorean forces act quickly, they can not only destroy most of the artilary, but to create massive destruction and confusion there… It will only take a few cells of B52’s and if they want to remain quick they can use stealth bombers…
Their missles which consist of alot of soviet scuds, can be easily intercepted and destroyed.

Civilians, casualties will most likely happened, because not all artiliry can be intersepted… They are not worried about the NKorean army, because they can stop them in their tracks if they try to cross the border, but civilian casualties do worry them.

I am not saying that they should be underestimated… I am pretty sure they wont fall as fast as Iraq did… but I beleive they can be beaten…

Here is some information I found in my research.

Ground Forces

North Korea possesses a total of 996,000 ground forces, plus a light special forces command, which oversees special warfare units.

Its heavy equipment consists of 3800 tanks (T-55, T-62, T-72, and the latest ‘home brand’ heavy tanks), 2270 armored personnel carriers, and 11200 pieces of field artillery, with a major percentage self-propelled for purposes of speedy artillery support. The units are geared for mechanized warfare reminiscent of the Nazi blitzkrieg.

Last but not least, 100,000 special forces troopers stand ready to engage in sabotage behind the lines, sowing confusion and turning the whole ROK into a battlefield.

Summary

Both the professional Army and Specialist forces are highly trained and motivated. Reputed to be among the best combat forces available to any nation.

Navy

The DPRK Navy is divided into East Sea (10 squadrons) and West Sea fleets (6 squadrons) with a total manpower of 48,000.

North Korea’s fleet consist of approximately 430 combat vessels (Patrol craft, guided missile boats, torpedo boats, fire support craft), 40 submarines (incl 15 midgets), and 340 support craft (landing craft, hovercraft). As with the ground forces, 60% of the vessels are stationed near the demarcation line.

North Korea has constructed and is operating up to 130 hovercraft, each one capable of transporting a special forces platoon and operating freely in difficult terrain such as tidal flats, and able to be used for multiple landings by special forces troops at the onset of the war.

Summary

The DPRK Navy is considered to be of equivalent capability to any deep water Navy in the region, and utilises some of the latest technology available from Russia, the Peoples republic of China, and India.

Air Force

The air force has a total of six divisions (103,000); 3 for combat (fighter/bomber regiments), 2 for transport and helicopter, and one devoted exclusively for training.

Half of the 1670 aircraft are obsolete, with only 38% of all combat aircraft modern aircraft (MiG-23, 29). The mainstays consist of 470 old Soviet aircraft (MiG-19, MiG-21, IL-28, SU-7, SU-25) and 320 of ancient type (MiG-15, MiG-17). But it does possess 820 support aircraft and helicopters of varying levels of sophistication.

The aircraft that causes the most concern is the 300 AN-2, flying at 100 mph at low altitudes, that makes detection by radar very difficult, and its transport of special forces troopers deep behind the lines is a very definite threat.

Preperation

Since the 1970’s each government agency has been tasked with both preparing for invasion from South Korean/US Interests and also for the possible need for a pre-emptive strike on South Korean/US military and industrial centers for the purpose of self defence.

Reserves

North Korea has organized a grand total of seven million men and women into reserve units, made up mostly of volunteers.

Munitions Industry

North Korea initiated a program of [developing the economy and the military simultaneously] in accordance with the ‘total mobilization’ tenet of the [Four Militarizations] plan adopted in 1972.
Summarizing directives from the elder and junior Kim and observing the development of the North Korean industry would lead one to summarize the purpose of the development as follows:

  1. Self-sufficiency in military hardware - achieved
  2. Development of newer and better weapons - achieved
  3. Strategic positioning of munitions facilities - achieved
  4. Subterranean protection for industry. - achieved
  5. Preparations for continued production during wartime - achieved

The North Korean weapons industry since the nineties, has attempting to develop advanced weaponry such as the Rodong-1 rocket and other guided weaponry. An assembly of latest fighters such as the MiG-29 and others is also beginning to become available and are estimated to replace its front line fighter force within the next 5 years. It is safe to assume that North Korea is able to produce all but the most advanced weaponry available to the United States Forces.

The North Korean government and the military-industrial complex operates a diverse array of production plants and their numbers total 1800. Among them are forty small arms plants, ten armored vehicle factories, ten shipyards for combat vessels, fifty explosives facilities, etc. Most of the facilities are located in Chagang Province and other remote inland areas, and are partially or wholly underground to minimize damage in war.

Summary of War with North Korea.
It is estimated that a war with North Korea will be a bloody battle. Expected casualties in the first 72 hours of forces based on the peninsula is expected to run as high as 70%.

Given the United States distance from the Korean peninsula and the force structure in the Asia Pacific region a pre-war planning period of not less than 6 months (high attritional estimate) is expected to be needed.

A war with North Korea is expected to be protracted and while ultimately the United States is expected to win any conflict the toll would be extremely high and may jeopardise US capability for many decades afterward.

If North Korea were to launch a pre-emptive strike on the Southern Peninsula there is very little that could be done to stop Northern Forces other than the South Korean Defence forces which are not expected to prevail for a long period in the field.

===================

Hrm… think its time for a rethink on how much of a pushover the North Koreans may be in any war.

Good point!
And I agree a diplomatic solution is by far the best, at the expenses of casualties…

But looking back at war of Korea of 1950,
everyone knew that the Chines where openly stating that if the war came close to their borders they would fight with the N.Koreans. McArthur, the arrogant bastard, whent right in.
But in those months of combat… over 1 million chinese lost their lifes… as well as the Son of Mao himself. In the end , with even the canadians (god bless em! :love: ) holding out outnumberd 40:1 for 48 hours!! In the end over 2 million north koreans lost their lifes. With only 55 thousand Americans dead…

They held all the cards then… they had modern soviet battle tanks… small arms, rockets and artilirey… the war was close, and it was a war of attrition. But they still lost… It dosent mean that for sure, the U.S. will come victorious out of a conflict involving both NKorea and China… but I am willing to bet my money on the U.S.

I still favor a diplomatc apporach to things… Because well you can only predict so much…

Good points Phil!

the war was close, and it was a war of attrition. But they still lost…

Umm. I think you might want to re-look at your history. The war wasn’t won. In fact, in the early stages of the war the UN forces controlled up to 90% of Korea. After the chinese began to re-enforce the North Koreans, the UN Lost ground, and were pushed back to well into what now stands as South Korea. After a very long time the UN forces pushed back to where the border between north Korea and south korea stands and the UN sued for an armistice… something that they said they would never do.

It was a draw. And no one can predict (other than with the use of Nuclear weapons) how the outcome of the conflict would have been… especially not the UN and therefore signed the armistice agreement.

Even with the losses that China suffered in the war, China was argueably militarily stronger after the war than they were before it. The United States were not however able to suggest this was the case for them. The US was grappling with percieved Soviet Agression in Europe at this time which was taking a considerable level of military assets to counteract.

At the start of the Korean war in 1950 the new NATO command had 50 divisions under their command. By the end of the Korean war in 1953 this had fallen to 36 divisions, leaving the United States with less military capability than they had only 3 years earlier available to fight the Korean war AND counter the soviet threat.

In the end , with even the canadians (god bless em! ) holding out outnumberd 40:1 for 48 hours!! In the end over 2 million north koreans lost their lifes. With only 55 thousand Americans dead…

Dont know what particular battle or war you are talking about. 29,550 US Soldiers died directly due to battle in the Korean war. More died of wounds after the armistice was signed. Here is some further info.

July 27
The United States, North Korea and China sign an armistice, which ends the war but fails to bring about a permanent peace. The armistice was pushed for by General Clarke (Commander of UN Forces 1953 - Korea).

Total dead
Country | Dead | Wounded | Missing Total (in that order)
Australia 339 1,245 1,584
Belgium 97 355 452
Canada 309 1,235 1,544
China (1) ? ? 900,000
Colombia 140 517 657
Ethopia 120 536 656
France 288 836 1,124
Greece 169 545 714
Netherlands 111 593 704
New Zealand 31 78 109
North Korea ? ? 520,000
Norway 3 ? ?
Philippines 92 356 448
South Africa 20 16 36
South Korea 415,004 428,568 843,572
Soviet Union 299 ? ?
Thailand 114 799 913
Turkey 717 2,413 3,130
United Kingdom 670 2,692 3,362
United States 29,550 106,978 136,978

sorry, I know it was a draw… I forgot… :beam:

I concider it a lost , because they failed to invade SKorea…

And look, US military streingth still grew over the years… Korea was just a setback…
While Korean Military was considered puny until the 1980’s

Dont know what particular battle or war you are talking about. 29,550 US Soldiers died directly due to battle in the Korean war. More died of wounds after the armistice was signed. Here is some further info

Thats light casualties compared to Chines and N.Korean casualties…

In 1951, during the Chinese-Korean offensive,
*The permanent loss of Hill 355 would have been a serious threat to the United Nations Forces. It would have given the enemy control of the lateral road running through the American sector and would have made the Canadian positions untenable. Already the enemy presence on Hills 227 and 355 had left the R22eR in danger of being encircled. During the nights of November 23-24 and November 24-25 the shelling and attacks continued in increasing intensity on both fronts, as Hill 355 passed from Chinese to American to Chinese hands and back again. Each time the enemy gained control the R22eR was exposed to further attack. On the evening of November 25, after four days and nights of continual shelling, Hill 355 was again in American hands, and “D” Company of the Royal 22e Régiment, although in a state of near exhaustion, still held its ground. *

They where fighting outnumbered 40 to 1 and the canucks still held!

And I would argue that the Korean war was a serous embarassment for all sides, espesialy the chinese… who should have been thought a lesson of respect… the U.S saved their country 8 years ago, and now they attack them…
But even in a war of attrition was a failure for them, one million is just too much for the size of conflict… They left this conflict like everyone else… in embarassment…

Now back to N korea…
remeber that all the armor you named is very few for a 4 million man army! they have about 800 T-72’s and even t-72’s are already pretty old… They even still use T-34’s… with 2500 rag-tag APC’s is very hard to wage a mobile war… and its very hard to actualy set up supply lines for Korea and keep their logitics flowing to keep up an offensive…
Many generals have stated that they will not get far from the 38th parrallel in case of an offensive, their small, yet better trained and equiped soldeirs they can easily contain and slow a force to a crawl. … Because the front is so small, it allows for the U.S. and S.korean Airforce to consentrate its operation and serously slow down any offensive… Because they will be completle unaposed by any other air… unless the Chinese enter the war right away, which I doubt it will in case of a Nkorean Offensive…

The North korean navy is mostly restricted to coast patrols…
It poses very little, if no threat to the U.S. navy. It mostly consists of mainly small type of patrol boats, torpedo, and missle-anti ship boats… They can be easily destroyed from the air as well as with a U.S. Navy…

The N.Korean airforce is pretty much non-existant in the face of a modern air force. They have out dated mig’s and logistics airplanes… which can be easily intercepted and destroyed…

In a war N.korea can cause heavy casualties, as a result of the small space , the density of the population and the sizes of the military… And with a war of attrition korea can defently hold its own… but U.S. will not fight that kind of war…

But yes, i would not recommend a war on N.Korea without the backing of the U.N. I usaly don’t back anything without the U.N.