*Originally posted by comicGeek *
**Poor guy!
He’s completely unhappy! 
**
no he’s unhappy cause he probably doesn’t get laid. and has his head up his arse, as kit said.
Which does make it rather difficult to get laid, admittedly… 
probably smells too.
no way is Flash the cause of bad design. ridiculous. tbh, the nature of the internet is the cause of bad design. it’s far cheaper and more easily accessible than say… print… or any other medium for that matter. it’s a simple fact that whilst there might be one amazing new site that has everything with good usability etc, there are going to 1000’s more that are ****, simple because it’s so easy to publish to the web.
I wrote an article on this for my Foundation Course written assessment, about the relationships between form and function in web design - if anyone wants a read, lemme know. cough I got a distinction cough (<-- that said, I still don’t think it’s that great ;))
You’re hitting the guy! 
good hit him harder :beam:
i think the key is to meet “halfway”.
…i guess everything goes out of control when one goes extreme… i mean …excessively… (hmmm… im out of right words) …okay, something that has to do with the “over” thing… yes! OVER-doing things and stuffs, these and those…
[for general audience, let’s meet halfway!]
leftover:
i do agree [if ever we want to go extreme], we can do it on our personal sites. And i do believe that’s also a way of expressing ourself, our feelings, our views, our failures and diappoinments…andthe list goes on… and most importantly, developing oneself skills…(or whatever you called that thing) …the personal sites is one’s “wide room” for development!
well said noxious, however, if we make a personal site that is difficult to use, then the purpose of that site, even if it is design, has been wasted because visitors will leave with a bad taste of the site.
That is, after all, why we publish anything on the web afterall, for the visitors, isn’t it?
I compare it to a business card that is difficult to read. It looks cool, but nobody can find your phone number or email, unless you point it out to them. How much good does the business card do for you, if your clients/freinds can’t figure out what you do, or how to get in touch with you…
My view on this, anyway…
Rev
hahaa yes your pretty correct rev!
…anyway, you can place a special section on your personal site where you place your “extremes”! … after all the overall effect will be only for you (your credibility)…solely for you! …if they will not like your site… huh huh poor boy!
listen. when it comes to clients follow the rules…if you want to get paid. other than that screw everything else. think for yourself and dont let random people tell you whats wrong or bad. you are the visionary. you decide. nuff said
If you don’t let the fact that people will be accessing your site affect your design approach, then just leave the thing on your PC.
Once you put something online, it is not entirely your anymore. You have a duty not to be misleading about your content, and to make the site in some way usable to the random user. Actually, thats not true, but I think you have a duty to warn the random user what they might be facing into.
Sure, create whatever crazy weird thing you want, but put a page in front of it saying “beyond this is some crazy stuff. Be warned”.
I reckon that if you’re doing something for a client, then you pretty much have to abide by their wishes. You can offer advice if you think they’re going in the wrong direction style / design / usability wise, but you can’t force them.
Your own stuff… If you like it then it is really up to you. But you have to remember that other people aren’t going to know it inside out like you do. 
Comparing the the design and style of one of macromedia’s page’s to one of adobe’s pages shows shows an interesting contrast.
Jeffery Zeldman states in this article style vs design
Great work is being created in Flash (SWF), and it’s receiving overdue recognition
He makes good points about the problem of over doing it with bandwidth eating style but he’s totally out of context. I surf the net through hundreds of pages a day from enterprise’s websites to tiny personal one. All the major sites are fast to download on my 56k and I’m happy about the style and design. There’s no problem out there with design. It’s evolving very nicely hand in hand with swf technology.
Is adobe happy about the success of macromedia though? Is this guy happy about his own success as a web-designer? I think not.
you hit him again… i mean THEM! heheee… harder please! :rambo:=)
*Originally posted by noxious *
**hahaa yes your pretty correct rev!
…anyway, you can place a special section on your personal site where you place your “extremes”! … after all the overall effect will be only for you (your credibility)…solely for you! …if they will not like your site… huh huh poor boy! **
Alot of sites that have a big amaizng site that style is put over design usualy have a secondary site you can load form the splash page. This second site focuses on design. It is usualy minimal with very little wow factor and very quick and easy to navigate. This is a deffinet way to go.
*Originally posted by cybertao *
**Is adobe happy about the success of macromedia though? Is this guy happy about his own success as a web-designer? I think not. **
I think not too! But Adobe have great successes in other areas especially in graphics editing. The author, I think, is just overwhelmed by the hype that Flash made with its success. He doesn’t know how to use the software. He closed his mind to new methods. He loves the old ways of doing things because he knows he’s good at it. Now with Flash new designers are emerging with fresh ideas and better design. I think he’s threatened. I think he used the following to come to a conclusion:
[AS]
ourAgeGap = myAge - theirAge;
newDesigners = Flash + ourAgeGap;
imObsolete = true;
//What can I do about it
if(imObsolete != true){
trace(“Do nothing!”);
} else {
trace(“Write about the usability issue!”);
trace(“Remove the source of the emergence of new designers!”);
//Target Flash
}
[/AS]
Let’s face it, technology obsoletes itself. Sooner or later new technology will surface bringing with them new and better users and designers. We will be at that author’s position now! True designers are willing to accept that change. and in time they will learn them.
The question now is: Are we going to be like him? Or are we better?
Cheers!
comicGeek: I’m tired of the old, “we are better because we’re younger and more dynamic thing”. I dread to think that when I’m past my mid thirties I will be out of the loop, with no way back in except to sit and moan.
This guy isn’t wrong because he’s older. He’s wrong because he’s wrong.
Why is he wrong?
just wondering.
btw Pierce, I loved that you mentioned “zen and the art of…”. they are all good books which help out in various area’s of life. I’m a fan of “zen and the art of archery” myself. You are correct that style and design can be combined without a loss of either. The problem is of course that maybe 70% of the Flash stuff out there follows no rules of design at all, which is basicaly what the author is saying. I’m not sure how he’s wrong about anything. A jerk? maybe… but not wrong.
maybe I’m reading something different than the rest of you.
yeah I was just hitting him! No, no, that’s just my opinion!
Jeffery:
**Many young Web designers — and let’s face it, most Web designers are under 30 — view their craft the way I used to view pop culture. It’s cool or it’s crap. They mistake Style for Design, when the two things are not the same at all.
**
I guess I hope he’s wrong about this. Actually I agree with many of the points he makes.
Oh, I mean, I know style is not the same as design. I’m saying I hope he’s wrong about most web designers not knowing it. Ahem.
lol… fair enough.
you know this kind of thing might just not piss me off as much because I read all the design magazines and jounals I can find. I’m not expert on design… but I’d like to think that I have a pretty good idea of it by now.
Take for example a site I did about 2 years ago for a friend of mine. I created a solid Flash navigation system which I liked, as well as my friends. Everyone thought it was extremely creative and useful. Well, everyone except our visitors. No one could figure out how to work it. We got complaints, I created a new (more traditional) navigation system. It just goes to show that style is in the mind of the beholder… and can be interesting to a person or not, but if no one can figure out how something works then it’s design is flawed. That’s just a fact. It doesn’t matter how easy something is to use for you… it just matters if it serves it’s purpose in the most efficient manner possible.
