*Originally posted by upuaut *
**I knew what you were talking about, but what I was refering to was translations specificaly. Granted, both are tied together. Things are left out, or put in depending upon the current moral trends in the Church.
If you want a for instance, then I guess the most obvious and easily verifiable one would be Lillith being the first woman created by God. She’s completely missing from any modern translation of the bible. **
Your saying that Lillith is missing from any modern translation of the Bible, does that mean in the TORAH she does exist, please provide Hebrew lit. telling of her existance. I ask for hebrew lit. because the Bible is made up of 2 sections the old testament ( hebrew torah, and the new testament Jesus Christ) Please don’t be offended by that statement, I don’t know you nor your knowledge of the things we’re refering to, so I mention this so that you and I can remain on the same page, and personally I don’t want to get lost, I’m not a scholar, I’m not a pastor, I’m not a Bible Quiz show guy, I dont’ go around to chat rooms and message boards calling people heathens and telling them their going to hell… I’m a guy in love with God, that has a passion for web design so I hang at KIRUPA, and that’s why I’m here, which I’m sure is the same as all of you ( only the latter LOL)
I would have to look up if she is in the Torah. Off the top of my head I cannot remember. The Christian bible however, is not just taken from the Torah. It comes from many sources.
Let me ask about that question specificaly of my more Hebrew learned peers and I’ll get back to you.
I do not believe that the story of Lilith is in the Torah, but is part of Hebrew myth. Early Christian bibles included her as part of Genesis, but later she was taken out as per papal edict.
found an interesting link. Though I fully admit that these guys have their own biases. I personaly have read a Christian bible which included the story of lilith, but without reading one yourself, there is no proof. Priests of the modern day may or may not be familiar with the story, but anyone who understand papal edict will tell you the story doesn’t exist. For their purposes, as part of the living book of salvation, it doesn’t exist.
I have been doing some reading on the Bible, it’s been slow as I’m examining much of it. And as I fortold, much of it is becoming hard to believe as an atheist. Although I try to keep my mind open about it, I find it hard to accept it. So, I’ll be reading on and I’ll be sure to post some questions.
*Originally posted by upuaut *
** The Christian bible however, is not just taken from the Torah. It comes from many sources.
**
That’s interesting… to my understanding, The Bible is as follows, In the Torah, God created adam and eve, they sinned against God, and God promises to bring to them a messiah that would redeem them from their sins…the torah is the history of the Jews and the promise of their messiah. Later Jesus comes upon the scene fullfilling all of the prophecies of the Jews promised messiah…( a virgin birth, miracles, and resurrection) What part of the NEW TESTAMENT is from other sources? Please quote text.
Matthew Mark Luke and John, all claim to be eyewitnesses of Christ. Paul, was a High Ranking Jewish Pharisee, while traveling along the Damascus road to continue his persacution and murder of Christians, see’s Jesus Christ ( after his death) and becomes a believer.
*Originally posted by Maxtr0sity *
**I have been doing some reading on the Bible, it’s been slow as I’m examining much of it. And as I fortold, much of it is becoming hard to believe as an atheist. Although I try to keep my mind open about it, I find it hard to accept it. So, I’ll be reading on and I’ll be sure to post some questions.
=) **
So did I! But after doing the research and investigation as to whether or not its true, is what makes the difference. Right now, Iraq’s don’t believe in the death of saddaams sons, they asked for proof, it was hard to believe , but it provided proof. The burden of proof is not on Christians. The burden of proof lies on God. Christians present the evidence, like a lawyer and its up to you to decide whether or not its admisable in your court.
Jesus said " I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one comes to the father but by me"
that’s a pretty bold statement, and for me Christ has to back that up and prove to me I cannot get to heaven without having a relationship with Christ 1st.
“The Bible says demons tremble at the name of Jesus” this is an incredibly unbelievable statement , and for me, you better be able to back it up, or my faith is in vain, when my wife or daughter comes across a rapist, or drug dealers want to take me out because I refuse to allow them to do what their doing on my block.
Hopefully this gives you a perspective of why I believe what I believe that its not a blind faith, its a working test of the evidence being presented
looks at number of pages No wonder they banned religious discussion in gentlemen’s clubs. I’d really love to see all the secret stuff the Pope has stashed in the Vatican basement. And don’t get me started on the “prove Jesus wasn’t an alien hoax” question…
I would say that it is truly astounding how 3000 year old prophesy can be fulfilled in a 2000 year old book which has been translated numerous times and altered by individuals who had a vested interest in those prophesies coming true.
of course since Phill can’t see my posts, I guess it’s pointless.
Thats true phil, I dont know much about the Bible, but it is one of my guesses, considering it was written much later, after Jesus. It could be possble they got it wrong about the shroud…
Though I do admit that there are many prophesies in the bible which are both interesting in their accuracy, and worth reading. I don’t find it impossible to see however how such a conspiracy might occur. Many authors who had access to each other’s texts, texts which I might add were not accesible through either permission or education by any other sources but their own; in that case, it is hardly difficult to accomplish a conspiracy at all.
Add to that that the self same learned men were making a profit off of being the holders of these texts.
Add to that the fact that the bible has been changed relatively frequently in the past.
Add all that together and only a very trustworthy person would read it as a litteral example of historical record.
God bless the trustworthy, without em, he’d be out of work.
I do not believe that it is unknown that such changes have taken place, as I said however, you would have to read an old bible, and know the newer versions in order to see what has been changed. There is no denying however that originaly the Torah was in the hands of a single group. Likewise there is no denying that at this point in time there are over 6 major groups of Christians, all of whom have their own version of the translation.
Ask this of any serious priest you know. “What does it mean that the bible is a living book”. The very definition of the thing is that it changes based upon new papal edicts, or in the case of a non-Roman affiliated Christian group, councel edicts.
The bibles changes are not something that is taken lightly. If one changes something like “divorce” from the bonds of matrimony, they better have some serious public opinion on their side or heads will roll.
In the past, it has most often occured when a group found something too resque for the times. Luckily most of the Christian groups don’t have to go through Rome to change their bibles. Getting an official Papal edict would probebly be quite difficult.
As I said though… there’s no proof but reading it for yourself. No proof that I would find adiquate enough anyway. I hope that people are intrigued enough by what I say to seek out old texts themselves and experience the word of “God” for themselves. There is much knowledge there that I could never hope to bring to people.
I do not believe that it is unknown that such changes have taken place, as I said however, you would have to read an old bible, and know the newer versions in order to see what has been changed. There is no denying however that originaly the Torah was in the hands of a single group. Likewise there is no denying that at this point in time there are over 6 major groups of Christians, all of whom have their own version of the translation.
Ask this of any serious priest you know. “What does it mean that the bible is a living book”. The very definition of the thing is that it changes based upon new papal edicts, or in the case of a non-Roman affiliated Christian group, councel edicts.
The bibles changes are not something that is taken lightly. If one changes something like “divorce” from the bonds of matrimony, they better have some serious public opinion on their side or heads will roll.
In the past, it has most often occured when a group found something too resque for the times. Luckily most of the Christian groups don’t have to go through Rome to change their bibles. Getting an official Papal edict would probebly be quite difficult.
Very good point, since there are many versions of the bible wich one is the TRUE* version,
So david, should women be close to slaves for men? Should slavery be legalized again? Of course the bible is a “living book”. If Moses had 11 commandments and the 11th was that slavery was wrong and women were equal to men, do you think that a single person back then would have listened to him? Had Jesus talked about planes or cars, would people have followed him or thought he was a raving lunatic? The bible changes as time changes, but the basic principles and teachings remain the same. But since it seems like you don’t even trust people, I guess you won’t ever be able to have faith.
Um, Phil, your post is out of place for this conversation.
for the record, there is nothing mean spirited about me calling someone a literalist. I hold no disrespect for literalists in general. I’ll admit that I don’t understand where biblical literalists are coming from, but that’s not the same as disrespecting them.
He wants what noone else on the planet has; Proof of everything; Right now and whenever he demands it. And if you don’t have it, then it’s all your phault and your religion is werthless. Prove it, or don’t dare tell it as phact; Blah, blah, blah. Phorever.
I have never asked for any such thing. I have asked for proof when people state something is a fact.
If you post any more off topic critiques of me or my behavior I will delete them as are my duties as a mod. Your comments are completely meant to be inflamatory, not add to this discussion.
Nali writes
So david, should women be close to slaves for men? Should slavery be legalized again? Of course the bible is a “living book”. If Moses had 11 commandments and the 11th was that slavery was wrong and women were equal to men, do you think that a single person back then would have listened to him? Had Jesus talked about planes or cars, would people have followed him or thought he was a raving lunatic? The bible changes as time changes, but the basic principles and teachings remain the same. But since it seems like you don’t even trust people, I guess you won’t ever be able to have faith
Did I say that there was anything wrong with a living bible? I’m not sure where you’re coming from with that Nali. As it stands, the only thing that I’ve said about the bible is that I don’t find it to be a proof of anything. I have espoused the necessity for men of all faiths to read it’s word and interpret it for themselves in every paragraph of this discussion.
I have nothing against the bible, and only simple pitty for Christians themselves.
Sorry david, just you don’t post facts or links or anything. All you do is say (with your “greater than thou attitude”) how you pity people or how they’re wrong and you can give tons of examples (but you never do). So I couldn’t tell if that part about asking your priest about the bible being a living document was saying that it changing was wrong or whatnot.
