Protesting the Protesters

Fester: You said your father served? I think you said that in your letter to Lauren… that would be enough for me to stand up and take the defensive…

Fester:

It looks like you did the right thing. What I was meaning by friendship values, was that we all have limits. I have quite a few friends who have, for one reason or another, gone off my “A list” by a long shot. It happens.

Just as war proponents shouldn’t make it personal by saying “you must support the troops”, neither should the protestors make it a personal attack on the troops, or anyone else for that matter. If Lauren has a habit of following a strong personality, then she either needs to wake up, or become one of those friends who’s time you have treasured, but don’t ever see again…

it’s sad, but it happens more than people like to admit…

Rev

My father served two tours in Vietnam.

He told me that when his plane landed in cali and he stepped on american soil for the first time in almost two years some broad ran up to him and hocked a clam in his face.

Its just sick man.

I hear you Rev.

people are stupid…

sorry for any misunderstandings fester i thought that you’d ditched a good freind just because they were against the war. i can see now that you were justified in being angry at her.

No need for the apology bro.

Thats what this section is all about man. Discussions opinions and sometimes compromise.

:trout: but i’ll throw a smelly trout your way anyhoo

=)

Well…

let me say… I don’t support the troops, wait! Don’t flame me yet…
I am not saying they are baby killers… I just don’t support them because they are basicaly doing their jobs. They are all there because they joined the military on their own will… I mean, if we should support the Troops for doing thier jobs, why not support the garbage man for doing his… even though one is more dangerous than the other… no one forced the soldeirs to be there…

That aside I again desagree how we should treat civil disobedeance, and protesters that block roads and chains and all that good stuff… When Martin Luther King led his protesters down the streets of the south… was he supposed to be imprisoned? And because he’s not just holding up traffic, but threatening a whole way of life for the red-neck white racist of the south? Should he put away for a long time for that?

And whatabout Ghandi, he did it to stop wars and acheive Indian independance… Shouldnt he be shot? Because he didn’t just hold traffic, because of him britain lost a whole colony!

Now we shouldnt look at how to punish protesters, but why are the protesters there in the first place! Don’t you guys realise this year, the whole world had the largest protests ever!
-Dont you think thats something to consider? We should try to reason with them, maybe consider their opinion as valid for a change? Maybe we should go to the root of the problem and try to solve it? We should look as to ‘why’ are they there? If people are camped in the middle of a street… I think its because its something important…

And honeslty, I think saying that you want no responce is very ignorant of you… Its like you don’t even let her explain herself, there is a reason why she does it, and she ain’t alone… The USA isnt the most noble country in the world… great country, but not a perfect country… I see many flaws in bushes policy, and I am not alone… Even though calling U.S. troops babykillers is pretty stupid… she has the right, and maybe she thinks that for a reason… let her explain herself and then show her how she is wrong…

-Change a mind, dont imprison it…

yes, yes, yes, no protests, no problems, let the government do anything they want.

Hey fester,
I read through your letter, and you make some good points. I agree, with many of the reasons the protestors used against the war coming to a halt after seeing Iraqi’s cheer in the streets, the protest movement seems to have largely been undermined.

RussianBeer, when Martin Luther King, Jr. was making his speech, he was doing it in an area relatively free from traffic with listeners who were interested in hearing what MLK had to say. I find no comparison between MLK and what the protestors today are doing. Also, their movements did block traffic, but it was not the traffic of one of the world’s busiest few miles of road. His was more of a social protest not a political protest. Also, Gandhi did get shot and killed.

When a protestor, on purpose, decides to play dead in the middle of a busy New York street, I find that act to be quite immature. Is it the commuter’s fault - who have actual jobs - to be slowed down by those protesting because they have nothing better to do in their sheltered, comforted world. I have no real sympathy for protestors who would rather have Saddam continue murdering thousands of Iraqi children, women, and dissidents.

Also, one must look at the larger picture. A good 80%+ of American public support the war. This isn’t like the Vietnam protests where majority of the country was divided over the issue and the US military was having a very difficult time. The protestors are nothing more than a small minority who seek attention. Where were the protestors when the US decided to bomb Kosovo? Where are the protestors when Saddam gassed many of the Kurds in Northern Iraq?

Anti-war protests have existed for as long as the US has been a nation. During the Revolutionary War, many anti-war types left to find refuge in Canada. During World War I, World War II, etc. there were protestors against the US’s involvement in the military conflict. It is a part of the American psyche and should not be banned.

I believe that protests are important, but they should be done in a sensible manner. Blocking streets and tying up the police when there are greater threats such as terrorism is very imprudent. Civil disobedience is marked by humility and a willingness to fact the consequences of being disobedient in a civilian fashion. Gandhi never threw rocks at the police. Gandhi’s followers rarely used militant tactics. MLK’s message was that of love. I strongly doubt he or his people held slogans like “President XYZ is the biggest terrorist”.

I, for one, do support the troops because they are doing their job. I think we have the freedoms because of the sacrifices they made. I read this summary of a quote posted a short while ago:

**When in England at a fairly large conference, Colin Powell was asked by the Archbishop of Canterbury if our plans for Iraq were just an example of empire building by George Bush.

He answered by saying that, [COLOR=darkblue]“Over the years, the United States has sent many of its fine young men and women into great peril to fight for freedom beyond our borders. The only amount of land we have ever asked for in return is enough to bury those that did not return.”[/COLOR]

It became very quiet in the room. **

Cheers!
Kirupa :beard:

*Originally posted by kirupa *
**Hey fester,
many of the reasons the protestors used against the war coming to a halt after seeing Iraqi’s cheer in the streets, the protest movement seems to have largely been undermined.
**

a few points to make.

  1. Not all Iraqi’s are cheering in the streets
  2. Of course they’re cheering that Saddam has gone, but that doesn’t mean they think that the war was worth it.
  3. Saddam got into power with help from America so how do we know this won’t turn out bad.
  4. This victory will encourage the American government to do this again, what would happen if they tried that it N Korea.
  5. It will contribute to the hate that most of the Arab world feels towards America.

N Korea is not Iraq. You can not compare the two militarily. A war against North Korea would be much more difficult than 10 wars against Iraq. I think we will stay out of North Korea for now. We dont need a repeat.

North Korea has much more advanced technology than Iraq.

In response to your numbers:

  1. Yeah, so. Not every American is protesting in the streets. There is going to be a split in the publics thoughts regardless of the topic, or country. Why restate the obvious.

  2. Of course not. War is never worth it, but when you give the mother****er 11 years to get out, or at least cooperate, then something had to be done. He wasn’t going to listen to words, so we had to do something about it.

  3. No one ever knows. If we had known that he was going to be such a bastard we wouldn’t have put him in power. Same with Osama Bin Laden.

  4. The US doesnt need encouragement. They know exactly what they can and cannot do.

  5. Add them to every other country/ethnicity/minority in the world. Once again, who cares?

*just to note: I hate Bush with every fiber of my being. I also hate his entire cabinet and I hope they die and rot in hell. But I supported the war because I think it was necessary. I don’t usually think that war is necessary in any case, but I made an exception in this one.

One more thing: What if we didn’t do anything? We just let Saddam go one doing whatever he wants. Didn’t police him at all. Then say, one day he takes whatever weapons he has and he decideds to invade Iran. Then do you know what everyone is going to say?

“Where is the US? Why didn’t they do anything?”

We get in trouble if we act, we get in trouble if we don’t.

Do you think Britain was going to police Iraq? France? Germany? No, because thats our job.

We have to pick the lesser of two evils, and our government doesn’t care. Our choices are:

  1. Don’t act and let smaller countries get fried. Then recieve the backlash for our inaction.

  2. Act. Save the smaller countries. And recieve the backlash for acting.

I choose number 2.

Just be thankful I’m not the president. I would bomb a small country every other weekend.

starting with Canada :stuck_out_tongue:

Yeah, Brtain was next on the list. Then France.

Kirupa-
I disagree on some parts… MLK was getting in the way of people… you think the march on Washington had no effect, sit ins? Towns where shut-down when riot police came in and started assualting them… And Gandi was shot by an Indian, not a brit.

-All the troops are there because they wanted to be there! Volunteers, they are doing their jobs… which are sometimes dangerous. Alot of people have very stressfull and dangerous jobs but they do them. So I don’t feel they need my support they are just doing what they volunteered for. And espessialy in the eyes of the world… US military is the agressors who attacked a country who has done NOTHING to them… so can’t support the troops much.

What Collin powell said has some value but not all…
No land?:

AAF Camp Comanche Bosnia-Herzegowina
AAF Coleman Baden-Wuerttemberg Germany
AAF Heidelberg (Patton Barracks) Baden-Wuerttemberg Germany
AAF Stuttgart Baden-Wuerttemberg Germany
AAF Giebelstadt Bayern Germany
AAF Grafenwoehr Bayern Germany
AAF Hohenfels (CMTC) Bayern Germany
AAF Katterbach Barracks Bayern Germany
AAF Storck Barracks Bayern Germany
AHP Schweinfurt (Conn Barracks) Bayern Germany
AAF Hanau (Fliegerhorst Kaserne) Hessen Germany
AAF Wiesbaden Hessen Germany
AAF Kastner Japan
Camp Doha Kuwait
Camp Udairi Kuwait
Camp Able Sentry Kosovo Macedonia
Camp Bondsteel (Army) Kosovo Macedonia
Camp Monteith (Army) Kosovo Macedoniaa
AB Khost Paktia Afghanistan
AB Bagram Parvan Afghanistan
AB Kandahar Afghanistan
AB Mazar-e-Sharif Afghanistan
Diego Garcia (Air Force) BIOT
AB Thule Greenland Denmark
AB Rhein-Main Hessen Germany
AB Geilenkirchen (NATO Base) Nordrhein-Westfalen Germany
AB Hahn (closed 1995) Rheinland-Pfalz Germany
AB Ramstein Rheinland-Pfalz Germany
AB Sembach Rheinland-Pfalz Germany
AB Spangdahlem Rheinland-Pfalz Germany
AB Zweibruecken (closed) Rheinland-Pfalz Germany
AS Einsiedlerhof Rheinland-Pfalz Germany
AB Andersen Guam
AB Soto Cano (Camp Picket) - Army Honduras
AB Taszar Hungary
AB Aviano Friuli Italy
AB Ghedi Italy
AB Misawa Honshu Japan
AB Yokota Honshu Japan
AB Kadena Okinawa Japan
AB Kimhae Korea
AB Kunsan Korea
AB Osan Korea
AB Suwon Korea
AB Taegu (K-2) - Army Korea
AB Ali Al Salem Kuwait
AB Ganci (IAP Manas) Kyrgyzstan
AB Sola Sea Norway
AB Stavanger Norway
AB Clark (closed 1992) Luzon Philippines
AB Lajes Field Azores Portugal
AB Al Udeid Qatar
AB Eskan Village Saudi Arabia
AB Paya Lebar Singapore
AB Moron Spain
AS San Vito Spain
AB Incirlik Turkey
NSF Diego Garcia BIOT
NAS Guantanamo Bay Cuba
NSA Souda Bay Crete Greece
NAS Keflavik Iceland
NAS Sigonella Sicily Italy
NAF Atsugi Honshu Japan
NAF Misawa Honshu Japan
NS Yokosuka Honshu Japan
NAS Cubi Point - Subic Bay Naval Base (closed 1992) Luzon Philippines
NS Subic Bay (closed 1992) Luzon Philippines
NAS Roosevelt Roads Puerto Rico
NAS Rota Spain

No land? And what is this then…?
The USA has the most internationaly staioned bases than any other country! And the US military hasnt been the most holies of them either…

1953: USA backed overthorw of Prime Minister of IRAN and Install a Dictator in his place.
1954: USA overthrow of Democratic President Arbenz of Guatemala and 200 000 people die.
1963: Assassination of Diem for being corrupt and ineffcient.
During the Vienam war ara around 4 million people in South Asia die.
1973: USA backs the assassination of Democratic president Allende, and isntals Dictator Augusto. 5000 chileans die in the process
1977 USA Backed military rule of El Savador and around 70 000 savadorans die.
1980’s USA trains Osama bin laden and his terrorist groups to fight the soviets. And funds them 3 billion dollars
1981: After training and funding a Necaraguanina paramilatry gorup around 30 000 nicaraguans die.
1982: US funds IRAQ to fight IRAN
1983: US funds IRAN to fight IRAQ
1989: While removing Nicaragua from panama, US kills around 3 000 people.
1991: Restrictions and bombing of iraq kills around 500 000 children (Accroding to UN)
and many more!

I am not saying USA only did bad things, not at all! The removal of Noriaga, was a good thing, yet the people had to pay…
Alot of them where removed because it didnt favor the U.S.A. and the use of this kind of bullly tactics.
I dont know where you see 80% of the US population support it , its alot less, last time I checked… and lower because of absence of UN support. Most of the wolrd was against it? Dont you think there should be a reason to hear them out? Because the Gov. is not listing to that… some people have to resolve to these things to get our attention… we should consider their views, and stop the root of the problem…

-its like the drug war… the Gov cant stop it by getting rid of drug dealers, u stop it by getting rid of the drugs! Same thing here…

Have fun with this long post!

RB - good points, but the sit-ins were usually done in areas where businesses refused to serve African Americans. The protests are going on in areas where people, who have nothing whatsoever to do with the war, suffer because of their protesting. Regarding the towns being shut down - I don’t know, that may have happened. Gandhi was shot by someone who didn’t share his views on independence - I don’t believe nationality should play a role when ideologies are involved.

If one wants to protest, one can go to Washington DC. A place like NYC where traffic is bad enough as it is is not the place to be voicing your opinions on a national issue. Is the governor of NY going to change the war’s direction?

The support for the war is 77% (I picked a URL from a site that would be relatively inclined not to support Bush :)):
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/World/iraq_poll030407.html

Also, the numbers are before the Baghdad people cheering in the streets. So it is probably higher.

It is difficult for one to discern between “acceptable” forms of protest and protests which carry less meaning. I guess the protestors and the world would rather have Saddam kill off thousands of people instead of having us liberate them.

Cheers!
Kirupa :bandit:

*Originally posted by Jubba *
**
In response to your numbers:

  1. Yeah, so. Not every American is protesting in the streets. There is going to be a split in the publics thoughts regardless of the topic, or country. Why restate the obvious.

  2. Of course not. War is never worth it, but when you give the mother****er 11 years to get out, or at least cooperate, then something had to be done. He wasn’t going to listen to words, so we had to do something about it.

  3. No one ever knows. If we had known that he was going to be such a bastard we wouldn’t have put him in power. Same with Osama Bin Laden.

  4. The US doesnt need encouragement. They know exactly what they can and cannot do.

  5. Add them to every other country/ethnicity/minority in the world. Once again, who cares?

**

In response to your response to my numbers.

  1. I was just saying that all the Iraqis are happy and therefore saying that this war was bad for the Iraqi people is still a valid argument.

  2. So if the war wasn’t worth it then surely it was a good idea to protest.

  3. That doesn’t really counteract my point.

  4. Yeah but obviously if this war had gone really badly then there would be more Americans against it and therefore harder for them to carry on attacking countries.

  5. Who cares? of course you should care if Arabs hate America. There could be another 9/11 and then the American government will have an excuse to go and attack another middle eastern countrie, and then they’ll hate America more and do another terrorist attack…

First not all countries want a US preasance… not at all!
Even the germans have the RAF group against amercian presance… in Korea… even if it looks like without the US. Nkorea can make pancakes out of the south, they still want US. military gone… the list goes on…

Thanks for the source kirupa… but remeber… the news aint showing the people against it… and no people will show it either… they are afraid of repurcussion from the Rebels-Coalition-And anti-saddam iraquis… but I am sure they will be happier and all that good stuff… I just dont think they realise: yes they will have a higher standart of living… but now they are basicaly a U.S. satelite state…
Even though I rather be in a satelite state of the US then with uncle Saddam… Its just a point that they are not totaly free…
They cant build a large arsenal, they must support the U.S. or at least the Gov must. They can’t build nuclear facilities or large offensive armies…

Some may argue… thats good, so they don’t threaten us or israel… but look it a it from a neutral point of view, their soverignty has been compromised…!

their soverignty has been compromised

:slight_smile: I think that is the only point he’s making Phil… and I agree that this could be a problem… so should you if you believe in the stuff you’ve discussed with me.