i really ap(p?)reciate talking about these things.
the best solutions or ideas come from discussions because you can form your own opinion, and its necessary to talk about things like that, or at least its better thatn having no or a very strict opinion on sth.
share your brain-content!!!
Glad to have you among the thinking fishtank.
Interesting to note. I just spoke with a relative of my fiance’s today. He’s in this country for a bit, site seeing and such. He’s also been all through Europe and parts of Asia for his faith, as recently as this year. From his point of view anti American sentiment is rising everywhere. It seems to me, preordained, that the US is in for some nasty weather in the future. With the amount of misinformation spread about us, and by us… it’s no wonder half the world wants us to get the hell out of their countries.
As for the book… I’ve read that one fully, and parts of other books by Moore. I’ve done at least cursory investigation into his sources and have yet to find any blatent lies. He certainly does flavor his productions… which is to be expected, but I don’t think that he is a liar.
Ok, lets talk about the media. You say might sources might be biased, etc. But I have two questions:
I’d like to hear you make a case for the objectivism of Michael Moore, which I take is one of your sources. Tell me, what other books have you read in order to shape your opinion?
Let me tell you about my sources. I get my news from MSNBC, ABC, the Washington Post, Newsweek, the BBC, Al Jazeera, Le Monde, and the Kuwaiti News agency. I read Chomsky. I also read Fareed Zakaria. I look for histories of conflics, and I read other people’s opinions.
The numbers? Well, I’ve read the estimates of the number of people in various newspapers. After the first gulf war, about 10 tons of documents that described atrocities by Saddam were seized by coalition forces. The papers were analized by the UN, and they came up with an estimate in the hundreds of thousands. The Syrian, Russian, and Israeli intelligence agencies have confirmed these numbers.
As for civilians killed by the US? The US “doesn’t do civilian deaths.” So it’s up to news agencies to report them. I suggest you go to www.iraqbodycount.com to see the figures. It’s not a very good method of counting civilian deaths, but I dare you to find a better source.
Let me put in my two cents about news agencies. It is my belief that agencies such as Reuters and the Associated Press report the truth. I really do. However, they’re not media outlets. ABC, TIME Warner, NBC, FOX, etc… those are the news outlets. They all have something called a “gatekeeper” who decides what is presented and what isn’t. And they’re not controlled from the government - we have a truly free press. Sadly, the media outlets are controlled by the people themselves. How? People don’t watch news that they don’t like. They don’t want to watch Iraqi’s dying, Arabs protesting, etc. They want to see stories about american soilders, american victories. Why? Because they’re patriotic. People turn off their tvs when their team is losing. This motivates the advertising industry to promote only on newscasts that present a pro-american picture, and that’s why we don’t see the truth.
There’s definitely a lack of reporting ethics in the news. Let’s take Kirupa’s favorite source of information (sorry I have to rant on you man! hehe… :)) FOX News. There’s NO way that they’re presenting a fair an accurate depiction of events. MSNBC covered the mass protests in NY and Chicago. So did ABC News. Fox News, however, only gave them a cursory pass. Fox News paints a conservative picture of the world.
If you want to see the closest thing to unbiased reporting, check out the BBC.
I wish I could continue this, but I’m tired.
All agencies have their bias-es. There are primarily two areas of Bias from what I am able to see:
1.) Avoiding covering certain topics
2.) Twisting the facts
I find that the American media has been known to take part in Area 1, but very rarely do they purposely delve into the wonderful world of Area 2.
lava…why do you always pick on me? hehe 
Actually, I watch more MSNBC than Fox News. On most of the days, I watch CNBC and the news from there comes directly from MSNBC. The only Fox News shoes I watch regularly are “The Fox Report” and the “O’Reilly Factor”
Cheers!
Kirupa :ub:
O’Reilly scares me now. Do you hold any belief in all the gosip about him?
I’ll bet the only fair and accurate way of discerning the truth these days is through ESP. We should all work hard on developing our remote viewing powers. 
*Originally posted by david *
**O’Reilly scares me now. Do you hold any belief in all the gosip about him?
I’ll bet the only fair and accurate way of discerning the truth these days is through ESP. We should all work hard on developing our remote viewing powers. 
**
haha, dude, you have to read second foundation by Isaac Asimov…
Kirupa, you told me once that you used to sit at home watching Fox News all day… hehe, that’s why I mentioned it.
MSNBC? it’s a good source, but they’re SO pro-american it makes me want to smash someone’s head with a coconut. However, I end up getting my information from them a lot of the time. I like their website… hehe.
and for the rest of you, if you get your news JUST through TV, there’s NO way you’re getting enough information. TV never has analisys.
Haven’t gotten through much Asimov yet. Been concentrating on others… but he’s an author I will eventually read.
lava: i completely agree with you that if we want to inform ourselves we have to do that very carefully and from many different sources.
i think its like that in every country, that every newspaper/tv-/radio-station has a political opinion which they want to spread.
i really like this discussion :A+:
cya
*Originally posted by lavaboy *
**Kirupa, you told me once that you used to sit at home watching Fox News all day… hehe, that’s why I mentioned it.
**
Lava, yeah, I think I remember that conversation on AIM we had about that. It was meant to be taken sarcastically, for I couldn’t stop laughing at your next comment which was “You conservative you” =)
I watch Fox News for some of the actual battle coverage. They had, from my view, better coverage of the actual battlefield, and they also have really cool, blue animations and cut-scenes which are really awesome. I like O’Reilly, he is quite opinionated and, to a reasonable degree, quite articulate. I do not agree with several of his views, but several of them I do agree such as the illegal immigrant situation. It annoys me that the border between the US and Mexico is largely unregulated because of a few extra votes here and there that could be given to any candidate who opposes strengthening the border. Then again, I’m sure the problem is more difficult than what I perceive 
Donahue and Chung…I could not stand them. They were basically placed on the same time slot as O’Reilly to compete with his show - not to really get any interesting point across. You can’t force someone to opine for an hour in a vain attempt to gain ratings.
For analysis, I watch a combination of MSNBC and Fox; I find MSNBC gets some better analysts than the other stations. Of course, the media I watch is a little pro-American, but for the other point of view, all I have to do is read a few threads in Ordered lol j/k.
Cheers!
Kirupa 
I hope im not hijacking this thread which is apparently about news sources, but i just wanted to say that i went to purchase, “bowling for columbine” yesterday, and the release date was pushed back, so i ended up purchasing, Stupid White Men. This book is gripping from the beginning, and i can’t wait to read it all. Michael Moore’s use of sarcasm is great! I love it!
*Originally posted by kirupa *
**The US killed thousands of Native Americans in the 1800s, tried to destroy their way of life, and move them away from their native lands. If anything, in the 1900s, the US has changed its policy of culturally dominating the Native American culture to one more of accomodation. I’m not sure why something the US did hundreds of years ago, tried to correct a hundred years ago, has any bearing on the topics at hand today. I strongly doubt you will find anybody in the US who still feels justified at our treatment of Native Americans.
**
That’s a good point and i agree with you, but I’d also like to point something else out. America helped France a long time ago but they still see it as a good reason why France shouldn’t be against the war.
I think dragging up the past is completely irrelivant. You can’t bomb Egypt because they persecfuted Jews thousands of years ago and you can’t drag up old points of who did what toi who a hundred years ago.
*Originally posted by Law *
**That’s a good point and i agree with you, but I’d also like to point something else out. America helped France a long time ago but they still see it as a good reason why France shouldn’t be against the war.
I think dragging up the past is completely irrelivant. You can’t bomb Egypt because they persecfuted Jews thousands of years ago and you can’t drag up old points of who did what toi who a hundred years ago. **
I think you can apply this across the board about most topics of justice and reparations." If you are bennifiting from something that was done in the past,
you should be held accountable."
don’t hurt yourself
Ralph
what amazes me is how friggin ignorant the public is. they will believe ANYTHING. so easy to sway that it becomes kind of hilarious.
I finished the Michael Moore book, “Stupid White Men” and i thought it was really interesting. He backs up all of his points by citing mainstream media sources such as Newsweek, and the Washington Post. I thought the book was great.
I still have had no luck in securing a copy of Bowling for Columbine. The local Borders (Book-Music-Magazine Mega-Store) said that they will not carry it, and the local Blockbuster (Giant American Video Rental Conglomerate) said that the release date will be pushed back until December! im bummed.
may i send you one?
corrects fish.
and by the way…i really wish people would stop bashing another person’s country…and making it a “hot topic” when it really isn’t.
sorry. that’s my opinion - my grandfather helped rescue France from Nazi Germany. Tell a veteran that what he did doesn’t matter
…some people make me so sad.
?
fishtank: If you mean you would like to send me a copy of Bowling for Columbine, i would graciously accept.
I finished the Michael Moore book, “Stupid White Men” and i thought it was really interesting. He backs up all of his points by citing mainstream media sources such as Newsweek, and the Washington Post. I thought the book was great.
Ditto. If you think that Michael is full of **** (as many do) then I challenge you to find something in his book, which he states as fact, which is untrue. I’d be very interested if anyone could find such a reference. I’ve never seen one myself.
My Father claims that Michael Moore is completely wrong when he says that Attorney General John Ashcroft was not met with much opposition when being nominated for the roll of AG. When i mentioned something about it to my father, he snapped, and said, “Michael Moore is nothing but a liar, and you shouldn’t read his books” I really have no recollection as to whether or not Attorney General John Ashcroft slid into the position easily. (i was not politcally aware at that time). Does anyone recall?
by the way, this is an old thread.