2004 Election

talk
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What problems? How about the fourth amendment? Freedom from unreasonable searches and seizures? How about your privacy? And the Fifth amendment? Because non-citezens can be jailed on mere suspicion and be denied re-admission without proof? And suspects convicted of no crime may be detained indefinitly in six month increments without judical review? Which interfires with Forteeth Amedment which: Allows all persons (citezenz or not!) within the US are entitled to due process and equal protection of the laws. And the sixth amendement; Right to a speedy public trail by an impatioal jurry, and be informed of the facts of the accusation to confront wintesses and have assistance of counsel!

Everything that you said is being taken away with the Patriot Act is already permissable by the governmentedit*

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Various court rulings have also clarified or dismissed portions of the Patriot Act since it came out :slight_smile: It’s not nearly as bad as it seems imo.

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Everything that you said is being taken away with the Patriot Act is already permissable by the governmentedit*

Since when and where? Maybe only under martial law… but otherwise why did they pass the Act? I need to see where before I beleive it.

Various court rulings have also clarified or dismissed portions of the Patriot Act since it came out It’s not nearly as bad as it seems imo.

Some, very little… the majority is still there.

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i know people could probably find a website to say the exact opposite of this one…but here it is anyways:

http://www.lifeandliberty.gov/

just start reading…

most of the detainments, seizures, searches, wiretapping, computer searching…etc…among the other items has long been in effect. from past news stories, to my experience in law enforcement… a lot of people don’t know about it, because well they aren’t the target, lawbreakers are. how long as the eschelon system been in place?

in cases where the government both state and national want to, they can do almost what they want…it’s been that way for years. as i said before this just puts a nice public package on it.

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Nah…
They mostly try to justifiy the Patriot act, for example the infringment of the First Amendement they say is neccassairy (even though they say law officers dont care)

most of the detainments, seizures, searches, wiretapping, computer searching…etc…among the other items has long been in effect. from past news stories, to my experience in law enforcement… a lot of people don’t know about it, because well they aren’t the target, lawbreakers are. how long as the eschelon system been in place?

**Only **after a court order!
The Patriot act eliminates the judicial branch completle from this action! Other parts like the electronic communication it creates brand new rules for them. And as I keep reading this, they keep kicking off the court out of many dicisions! Dammit, they do write it in a soothing tone but it dosent help!

The website just tries to justify it really, they also leave out many other concerns I have, and avoid them altogether… while there are few expetion, on the most part, its exacly as I thought it was.

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Ok it looks like I found a mostly bi-partisan source…
Take a look for yourself…

How bad is Patriot, really? Hard to tell. The ACLU, in a new fact sheet challenging the DOJ Web site, wants you to believe that the act threatens our most basic civil liberties. Ashcroft and his roadies call the changes in law “modest and incremental.” Since almost nobody has read the legislation, much of what we think we know about it comes third-hand and spun. Both advocates and opponents are guilty of fear-mongering and distortion in some instances.

http://slate.msn.com/id/2087984/

(MSN of all places!)

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good find.

but i still say that is not as big a deal as everyone makes it out to be -

government did warrantless searches before this act, and they will continue to do them.

and its not intended for “every American”

if you are acting like a terrorist, then they have a right to search you…

just like an officer can by just the look of your eyes require you to step out of your car and take a blood alcohol test.

police also have checkpoints in cities that randomly stop cars to see if that person has their seatbelt on…

and those are just the tiny itty bitty things that hold the same premise as the patriot act, and yet people do not complain or call them violations… i don’t hear people saying

“its my car I’ll wear a seatbelt if i want to and the police have no right to check if i am or not”

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pr ur opinions are very interesting.
it also looks like like you spend a lot of time on kirupan forums

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azzy> that’s why we all love him.

pr> yes, they did warantless searches before, but the person being searched could turn himself towards the courts and complain that they did so without warrants. Now, he just can’t. Final. Police has the right to do what it wants in anyone’s home (roughing it up). Same with “terrorists”. He’s acting like a terrorist!! Tell me, what does a terrorist act like? He goes around to see his other muslim friends and has tea over while looking at family photos, or he fakely goes around to see his other muslim friends to fakely have tea and fakely looking at family photos while in fact he’s seeing his terrorist cell group to plot against the Capitol… What if the police officer just says “ha, he looked like a terrorist to me, I had to storm the house?” (not like that SHOULD happen, but the PatAct prevents any measures to be taken against that officer). “Hey! he’s olive skin, let’s search his house” (not like that SHOULD happen, but the PatAct prevents any measures to be taken against that officer).

it is not intended for every american

are you going to tell me there are different types of Americans before the law? :-/
The Patriot Act is a big deal, it basically puts the notion of innocence until proven guilty completely backwards. You’re guilty until you can prove us you’re innocent. That is not justice!!

oh, getting another Godwyn point now…
Hitler also greatly overpowered the executive branch (police) over the judicial branch. Just pointing out at History… :wink:

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I hear all these things about how the Patriot Act is taking away our rights and all the things Pomme_ is saying, but no one can ever cite specific places in the Act. I have tried to read it, and have not found anything that alarmed me. I think there are people that will think any law is evil and against civil rights and other people think all laws are great and protect us all. I personally don’t have an opinion on the Act. I assume it does what the justice department says and am waiting to be proven otherwise by someone showing me exactly where they are wrong. The Act is broken up into nice little paragraphs and numbered so citing it should be easy…

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government did warrantless searches before this act, and they will continue to do them.

that’s true, but technically, it’s not legal and if nothing is found, action can be taken for a wrongful search ((infringement of privacy)(don’t know the correct terminology)).
My fear about the Patriot act is not in how it’s written or its intended use, my fear is that it will be abused and we will have less freedom and privacy as a result. It’s already been said that the government currently performs warrantless searches, without the institution of the patriot act. What will they do once they have that power, how far will they push the law to their advantage?

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To be honest I am still bewildred on how can conservatives support this Act? I thought you guys where against big goverment, and goverment control!? What happened? And shouldnt the liberals be for it?

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I merely meant by the “not every American” in so much as it’s meant for the “bad guys.”

The normal everyday law abiding citizen isn’t going to be affected by this. I myself haven’t been…anyone here been affected by it? I have olive skin, I look extremely eastern european/jewish and I don’t feel any pressure?

I understand what you are saying never doubt that - I don’t reply until I have read and understood what was posted. It’s just before if an officer saw someone doing something a bit terroristy (hehe new word) they couldn’t do anything at that moment to stop it - they would have to go through all the mumbo jumbo etc. to get anything done - this just allows them to move freely to ensure our safety.
This isn’t like “Judge Dredd” or anything.

Do I fear this act if it’s abused? Of course I do! I mean who wouldn’t?
I’ve met and dealt with a TON of state officers and there are only a rare few who might take a law such as this and run with it - most officers just want to do their creed “serve and protect.” Talking with them they feel as I do that laws are here to protect and ensure that people are happy. I mean anyone could get riled up about any law and someone, somewhere is.

Seriously though out of everything I know that goes on, I’m not scared by this act in the least bit. I would be scared of curfews, and having to drive a certain car, or wearing a bar code on my hand…etc.

You would be amazed what just the average police officer is capable of finding out about you with you even having a clue that he is doing it…and it’s all legal and it can be done for something as simple as a non-working taillight.

As far as being conservative…part of my conservative views contain a strict sense of God and country. Most of you know the extent of my faith, I love God and Christ passionately.

I also believe in protecting my country, serving its citizens, and protecting them from people who would do them harm. It’s in my nature. It’s my job. I’m a patriot.

I save the hard nosed talk for debates…I’m a whole lot more easy going than these discussions.

–yes I spent a good deal of time on here - I think this is a great community and love participating with EVERYONE here, there is a lot of culture on here and not to mention good times, great stories, and awesome artwork and advice. I’m all about this place. However, I do know how to close my browser haha.