Alternate Explanation of Life - We Have No Choice

talk
1

This is kinda Matrixy, can you rap your head around it ?

Concept.
Building a computer model of the universe that is 100% accurate.
Ok, to make a model that is 100% accurate it would have to account for every single atom that is in the universe. It would have to have information on the position, speed, direction of every single atom; it would also have to have information on how that atom is related to another. Ie. Is it an atom in a water molecule, it would then have to have information on that water molecule and its behaviors.
Now if one were to consider the amount of physical storage required, for every single atom even the best storage device would require thousands of atoms just to contain the information on 1 atom.
Therefore the computer would have to be 1000’s of times larger than the universe itself, and as the universe is expanding, although there is no new matter being added, because it is expanding position coordinates of new empty space would all have to be accounted for.

Now before one argues the uncertainty principle, or quantum physics and that analyzing the state of matter would change its state.
We can assume that if we were capable of building such a computer we would have resolved these issues.

So now having this computer and model of the universe and everything in it, I could look at you like you I was playing the Sims. I could fast forward and see what you do tomorrow, or rewind to when you were born.

So, today I fast forward the computer a day and see you trying to make a decision on what you want for lunch tomorrow, KFC or Mac Donald’s…. You pick KFC….

Now tomorrow comes and you’re standing there trying to decide what you want for lunch, but I have already seen that you pick KFC.
So from your point of view you have a choice, but from my point of view you don’t, I already know your going to have KFC.
Now if you had a choice it would be a 50/50 chance…. But as I know for 100% you’re going to pick KFC, that means you have no choice.
From the instance of the big bang you were destined to have KFC for lunch on that day.

Now…. Just because we don’t have the computer to fast forward our universe simulation to tomorrow, it wouldn’t change the fact that tomorrow you are going to have KFC for lunch.

My point, to us it seems that we have a choice, but we don’t…. Our whole lives have been pre determined from the moment of the big bang.

So, the next time you are trying to decide if you want KFC or Mac Donald’s for lunch, stop wasting your F#*%en time, what you are going to have, was determined billions of years ago !

2

I don’t believe that the future is predetermined. No matter what you have seen in your universe sized sims game, I still have a choice between KFC and McDonalds.

Now, I have heard a theory that says when i have a choice between KFC, and McDonalds that I actually choose both, but in alternate universes.

3

But there is no choice for me, I obviously would pick KFC! (-:

I joke, I joke, thats really deep, I like to think about that sort of thing sometimes… thanks for the good read :slight_smile:

4

Thats ok RedMirrorBall,
if you can’t handle the truth, I’ll just pop you back into the matrix.
But then you will never have the chance to find out what chicken really taste like.

I read one from newscientist where they say there are 11 universes and that they are all flat like a pancake and only 2mm apart…

5

Thanks Colin Campbell,

I am glade someone has gained enjoyment from my sleep deprivation.

6

*Originally posted by RedMirrorBall *
**I don’t believe that the future is predetermined. No matter what you have seen in your universe sized sims game, I still have a choice between KFC and McDonalds.

Now, I have heard a theory that says when i have a choice between KFC, and McDonalds that I actually choose both, but in alternate universes. **

And I subscribe to that theory. :smiley:
Plus, if you built a computer to account for EVERYTHING it would need more atoms to account for an atom than the atom actually contains… sort of like a 500:1 ratio or something (probably more like a 5,000,000:1 ratio). Which means that the computer would have to be 500 times the size of all the matter in the universe. Plus, are you going to exclude the computer itself out of the model? If not, then you’re going to have a big problem, as more than half of the computer is going to be keeping track of itself, which is then keeping track of how it’s keeping track of itself, until you end up with an infinate loop!

7

At the risk of sounding argumentative, do you really think that everything is predecided?

I just don’t think that the position, status, ect. of every atom in the universe has anything to do with a choice that I make.

If everything is known, and I have a choice between A and B, how can “everything” be used to determine what I will pick?

8

*Originally posted by SeiferTim *
**Plus, if you built a computer to account for EVERYTHING it would need more atoms to account for an atom than the atom actually contains… sort of like a 500:1 ratio or something (probably more like a 5,000,000:1 ratio). Which means that the computer would have to be 500 times the size of all the matter in the universe. Plus, are you going to exclude the computer itself out of the model? If not, then you’re going to have a big problem, as more than half of the computer is going to be keeping track of itself, which is then keeping track of how it’s keeping track of itself, until you end up with an infinate loop! **

Well I would have to argue that. Let’s remember that most of an atom is empty space, and most of space in general is empty space. I also think that you wouldn’t have to know the location of every single atom. At some point knowing other atoms’s positions, speed, tempature, ect. would allow you to assume some other atoms’s information. see what I’m saying?

9

As for the computer SeiferTim,
As I said it would be 1000 times bigger than the universe.
I made the point of that incase people didn’t think about the scale required to build it, and have them turn around and say in a few years when we have quantum computers we will have the computing power to make something as powerful as that.

We may one day have the processing power to run the simulation (though I doubt it), but the physical memory required to store it makes it impossible.

At the risk of sounding argumentative, do you really think that everything is predecided?

I don’t know…… But the fact remains that if hypothetically you had such a simulation, and I could fast forward it and see what you did…. Then as I said you wouldn’t have a choice because the choice had already been made.

I just don’t think that the position, status, ect. of every atom in the universe has anything to do with a choice that I make.

Not everyone does, but unless you model them all simulation can’t be 100% accurate.

If everything is known, and I have a choice between A and B, how can “everything” be used to determine what I will pick?

If everything is known, then you don’t really have a choice now do you, whatever choice you think you have, you don’t. The decision was already made.

Well I would have to argue that. Let’s remember that most of an atom is empty space, and most of space in general is empty space. I also think that you wouldn’t have to know the location of every single atom. At some point knowing other atoms’s positions, speed, tempature, ect. would allow you to assume some other atoms’s information. see what I’m saying?

But you would have to know everything, say you model just our solar system. There is a photon of light entering it from another Galaxy, the photon enters earths atmosphere, comes through your window hits your desk and goes of on its way.
Now when it hit your desk, it transferred some heat energy, this slightly disturbed the airflow in your room. There is a cold virus floating in your room, if that photon hadn’t come along and disturbed the air flow you wouldn’t have breathed in the cold virus, but now you have…. And you end up with a cold…
If everything from the other galaxy hadn’t been modeled then the simulation would show you not getting a cold when you did……

As for space being empty, its not, even if there is no gas or dust, you still have photons and radiation floating about. There are also those particles that pop in and out of existence and gravity is everywhere acting on everything, if you don’t model everything, then who knows where that photon from the other galaxy that caused your cold would end up.

10

They came out with some interesting results from a study in England.

It has to do with motorways. (Cause and effect) (Butterfly effect)

They wondered why there were traffic jams. And they found why.

1 car is doing 100, he slows down to change lanes, avoid a dog, whatever.

There person behind him slows down more,
the person behind him slows down more,
the person behind him slows down more,
and this continues like a wave down the motor way.

Buy the time it’s worked its way 1-2 km’s back down the motorway cars are at a stand still.

The guy doing 100 that may have only slowed down slightly, has now caused the traffic to come to a crawl a km a way…

We never consider our actions, but the slightest little thing we do changes everything on the planet.

11

Deep…very deep :smirk:

12

ok so working under the assumption that everything is predetermined…

What is the ultimate goal? Where does it all end and why?

13

I am not working under the assumption that everything is predetermined.
Its just a hypothetical, it is a reasonable theory and interesting to consider.

It only holds true as long as nothing is truly random.

What is the ultimate goal?

I personally do not think that there is an ultimate goal, I don’t think there is meaning to life.

Where does it all end and why?

I think it may end exactly where it started. Eventually all the stars will die, all the planets will be sucked into black holes, over trillions of years when all the matter in our universe has been consumed by black holes, the black holes will all slowly converge to back where it all started.

14

I’m going to move this into Ordered for now. While I may not exactly agree with what you say, it does provide for an interesting alternate explanation to the world as we know it :}

15

personally, I like to believe that I am in control of my life.
otherwise - what would be the point of living?

16

I don’t think that just because you know in advance what choice will be made that it necessarily means that there is no choice.
The thought process will still happen, you know how it will end, but the person is still reasoning.

17

I may not exactly agree with what you say,

I would like to know where you stand Kirupa, I may think differently to you but I would have to respect I point of view from someone who has created what you have.

what would be the point of living?

There is no point in living other than personal gratification from time to time.
Were are nothing more than a simple organism that has evolved over millions of years because of the physical laws of the universe.
Do you think that the simple bacteria that is living on your keyboard has any point to living ?
No it has no point in living, it just does and it is not self aware.
Unfortunately for us, the intelligence we have evolved has made as self aware, but being self aware doesn’t change the fact that we have no point of existing.

You pick up a handful of dirt, your nothing more than that, that’s where you came from. It’s just now your structured in a different way.
And I am sorry to tell you that sooner or later you will go back to being nothing more that a handful of dirt.

I don’t think that just because you know in advance what choice will be made that it necessarily means that there is no choice.

Well in the case of you eating KFC for lunch, if you know what you are going to have already then you don’t have a choice…. Sure you could think about what you what, or why you want it…. But you thinking about it doesn’t mean you have a choice.

Oh, and I am not gay, but I enjoyed spanking your *** ! =P

18

flawed, very flawed.

you cannot create a theory that all things are predetermined based upon an imaginary, impossible concept. It’s called “mental masturbation”. Have fun with it, but you really haven’t proven anything other than, “I can reflect upon the exact same subject that hundreds of people in history have reflected upon and come to the same non-conclusive conclusion.”

Now keep in mind that dispite how that sounds… I commit to these types of mental games all the time. One cannot find answers without asking questions. One cannot walk a path without taking steps.

Peace

PS - for the record I made lunch at my house and it was infinitely better than my predestined KFC.

19

*Originally posted by bamb0006 *
**I would like to know where you stand Kirupa, I may think differently to you but I would have to respect I point of view from someone who has created what you have.
**

Well the part that I happen to disagree with, in my opinion, is that there is a point to life - all of it. Even bacteria have a reason to live, even it if it is to do just that - live/survive. There is a related thread about the point of life here: http://www.kirupaforum.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=37594

Also, don’t you think it’s difficult to predict whether life is predetermined or not? After all, we are living inside this box called “life”, and would it not be difficult to escape the confines of the “box”?

:beam:

20

you cannot create a theory that all things are predetermined based upon an imaginary, impossible concept

Why not ?
Millions believe in God yet he/she/it, is an imaginary impossible concept.

At least my concepts are bound buy the laws of physics, not some story book full of funny little tails…. aka The Bible.

And until scientific tests have proven or disproven something, everything is an imaginary concept.

But you really have to give it to the writer of the Bible……
Ever since men had the mental capacity to ask why am I here, how did I get here, we have had forms of religion.

Egypitions used to worship the sun, because they didn’t know any better. Now that seems stupid to us.

Tribes used to sacrifice virgins to the volcano gods, now that seems totally stupid.

All the Greek gods… 1000 years ago I am sure they believed the stories, now we call them myths.

The best thing the writer of the bible did was come up with an immaterial God that can never be disproved.

People believe in God based on the bible and the stories in it.
When I was a kid exposed to the bible in school, I couldn’t help but laugh my *** off. God, Santa, Ester bunny, Tooth fairy……

I mean, take a look at 3 of the well known stories……
Noah’s Ark, the tower of babble, Adam and eve

Noah collected all the animals and put them on his boat and saved them…… I mean no one could honestly be stupid enough to believe this. Even today we haven’t discovered all the animals that our out there, how could he collect 2 of them all. Even if he could, the size of the boat needed to hold them all would need to be the size of the titanic…. Then how much food would all these animals need ?

OK, so Noah’s ark never happened, its just a silly Story….

Tower of Babble, men wanted to talk to God so they build a tower into the clouds and as punishment God made us all look different and talk different languages so that we couldn’t cooperate and do it again…… Now 2000 years ago when people didn’t know any better they would have believed this. But we know today that it was just that we evolved in different tribes and climates.

Adam and Eve ?
All I can say is have you heard of genetics ? Darwinism ? DNA ?

So obviously these are just 3 stupid stories, trying to explain things they couldn’t understand 1000’s of years ago.

Now correct me if I am wrong, but the Bible isn’t broken up into fiction and non-fiction ? The Bible is the book explaining how things were and how we should live.

So I just laugh my *** off when people talk about the bible…. Oh it says in the bible, Oh there is a God the Bible tell me so……

How can people be selectively ignorant ?

NOTE:
To any persons whom believe in God, the Bible, this is not a personal attack on you or your beliefs. We all have to live our own lives and believe what we want. I am happy to burn in hell for my blasphemy, I need a tan anyway…