Atheism

[system]

Upuaut, but when you listen to someone religeion, would you actualy listen or right away disaprove what they say as gibberish. Honestly, think about it. Will you dismiss it right away, or almost?
honestly

Or will you consider their points as valid? And go through the motion of examining them before dismissing them.

Beleif is such a wide and broad topic. But as a society and a civilized world we should learn to accept other people, ignorant or not. Because if you where a goverment representative you could start war with those words. And in many places not only hurt urself but others as well.

I disagree, I beleive athiesm is not a science or a beleif, its the abcence of.

[system]

Rb, what you said earlier about both sides trying to prove each other wrong are right on the mark. Religion is an individualized thing - if your beliefs works for you, it shouldn’t be my obligation to point out my way as superior or somehow try to “objectively” paint my side with higher quality paint.

Religious threads on the internet for the most part serve only for both sides to carry a megaphone and talk about their beliefs at the same time. Those who subscribe to one way of belief will tune out the other voice. Likewise, others do. It’s a mental ignore feature if you will Most who feel strongly in their beliefs, are not going to change their beliefs because of what is written on the internet.

:whistle:

[system]

*Originally posted by upuaut *
**
Asking an athiest to not disprove things is just plain silly. It means that they basicaly can’t do anything in life other than work eat and sleep. The nature of science is to disprove. It is the foundation of the subject.
**

<i>In my opinion…forcing someone to discuss the topic with you for the purpose of picking apart their side of the story is just plain silly.</i>

I am not a man of god, yet I am not Atheist. I suppose if I had to make a decision now I would still be in a paradox.

I have had the opportunity to explore a few different Religions. I was baptized Catholic, confirmed Protestant and looked into Pentecostal and even the Jehovah’s Witnesses practices (dont even get me started on that odd bunch)

I am yet to be convinced in the bible or each religions rendition of it. I have never seen god or experienced a miracle. Nor has anyone else I know. I know a lot of people.

I am leery to dismiss this as I am atheist. I think the whole big bang theory is rather intriguing, however it is riddled in holes. I know there are forces in this universe that we are yet to understand. Perhaps it is a god. I do believe that there is something greater than me. Whither it is god or the earth itself. I dont know.

I refuse to devote myself to something I cant feel taste touch smell or see. If the big man appeared in front of me I will be all for it. My faith scale would go through the roof.

Until that day I will continue to live my life as I do. As a good person who is good to people. I can also be a psychopath when I cam crossed the wrong way, but I suppose that is a sin and they can be forgiven (so I understand).

All in all when I die I am confident that if there is a god and a heaven I will be admitted based on my life accomplishments and not how many five spots I threw in the collection basket on Sunday. If there is not one then I will just rot in the ground with the rest of you and will have a lot more Sunday morning sleep sessions under my belt.

[system]

In my opinion…forcing someone to discuss the topic with you for the purpose of picking apart their side of the story is just plain silly.

no arms are being twisted. No one is being forced to participate in anything.

Upuaut, but when you listen to someone religeion, would you actualy listen or right away disaprove what they say as gibberish. Honestly, think about it. Will you dismiss it right away, or almost?
honestly

I don’t believe that I have ever not given someone the oppertunity to speak about a subject. Nor am I a very closed minded person. I accept all things as possible, and work from that premise, as far as I can tell.

I think if you look at all of my posts you will find that 90+% of the time if I make a counter point to someone’s arguement, it will be directly related to proofs of events, and what myself or others consider to be a validation of fact.

My own beliefs involve Alien contact, Higher vibrational planer activity, and a sense of worship of a creator who has no intellectual existance.

Can you find any thread at kirupa where I state that those beliefs are better than another set of beliefs, or where I state that my beliefs are factual where others are false? Can you find a place where I try to convince others to believe in those things at all?

My whole purpose when conversing with other people on such subjects is to wholey define my own belief structure, not to convince others to believe as I do. On the other hand I do preach quite readily that people should use the scientific principals when attempting to prove something to myself, or society as a whole. I stand by my belief that it is the best method of subjectively examining the universe that man has yet to devise.

Remember Russian, this is the guy who spent 6 months inviting Jahova’s in for coffee and bible study. (though for the record they don’t take any food that’s offered.Probebly a good safe policy.), I’ve read through the bible over 3 times, in various incarnations, AND I’ve looked for proofs of Christanity in it’s origins for the last decade. That is not the kind of person who dismisses other’s beliefs off hand.

[system]

Okay, it was a question I just did try to figure outif you did consider those things.

I’ve looked for proofs of Christanity in it’s origins for the last decade.

See, I think thats where you get it wrong. Releigon does not require proof. Thats why it is called beleif. And beleiving is a choice. Beleif does not need proof, it can and does function without it. Beleif is an incredibly powerfull thing, it alone has done so much for people I know that it is not something that can be dismissed so lightly.

It seems you keep searching for proof or arguing for it. But you miss the point; reliegon does not need proof. No one needs to prove it, religeion is not a science.

Its quite simple: You either beleive, or you dont. Personal things can affect your decision: like proof for you upuaut, culture or conflicting beleifs.

When I said that no one should be forced to believe or to disbeleive … etc…
I did not mean this topic. I meant in life. (lets exclude David for a sec) most Athiest that I know of, dont even want to smell someone who is gona ask them about finding jesus or saving their sould. But many releigous people I know, dont want to be forced to bring proof, which to them is rediculous.

Remeber what seems a state of ignorance to you, might not be to others. And to them, you, by searching for proof live is being in a state of ignorance. (bear with me for a second) Because you need proof for Releigion just as much as you need a third nipple.

[system]

quote:I've looked for proofs of Christanity in it's origins for the last decade.

See, I think thats where you get it wrong. Releigon does not require proof. Thats why it is called beleif.

No you’re wrong there. Some people do not require proof, others do, I seek those answers because I require it. In order to even start to have faith in something I require a lot more proof than the next guy, that is true. I don’t believe that’s “wrong”, that’s just how we differ.

It seems you keep searching for proof or arguing for it. But you miss the point; reliegon does not need proof. No one needs to prove it, religeion is not a science.

That is absolutely correct.

However, me arguing over the proofs that I require for the bible to be a litteral record of God’s people, is not at all the same thing as me asking for proof of God, which I haven’t done to my recolection.

Its quite simple: You either beleive, or you dont. Personal things can affect your decision: like proof for you upuaut, culture or conflicting beleifs.

That is certainly true as well. But the basic problem lies in that I don’t spread a preaching of Atheism, only science, and these are two separate things entirely. As I said, if anyone can find a better, more subjective method of examining our world then the scientific method, I’ll use it. I see you as being the one making a mistake Russian. You seem to be under the impression that I am spreading atheism. I will admit to having argued on the side of atheists. I have also argued the side of Christians. That is not to say that I believe in any one more than another, but that I believe certain aspects of each need defense against a lot of really stupid people.

Information is precious Russian, and without people there to defend it, we probebly wouldn’t even be where we are today. The “Faithful” who require no proof of anything have proven that they are not responsible with information. They have proven that they will kill, defame, and debase anyone who actually offers up a threat to their precious “faith”. I will defend some things to my dying day, and screw anyone who tries to change me. Science, has proven itself in so many ways, and I will defend it’s existance, and it’s findings with my life.

When I said that no one should be forced to believe or to disbeleive … etc…
I did not mean this topic. I meant in life. (lets exclude David for a sec) most Athiest that I know of, dont even want to smell someone who is gona ask them about finding jesus or saving their sould. But many releigous people I know, dont want to be forced to bring proof, which to them is rediculous.

I don’t argue with people who do not attempt to discuss these things with me. As I said, everyone is free to choose what topics they talk about, and to whom. The majority of my targets on the religious front is restricted to people picketing “Dogma” or threating people who are trying to get into planned parent hood, and if people ask my opinion in a thread, here at the forum.

Remeber what seems a state of ignorance to you, might not be to others. And to them, you, by searching for proof live is being in a state of ignorance. (bear with me for a second) Because you need proof for Releigion just as much as you need a third nipple.

Nope, your wrong there. I need proof of anything I’m going to have faith in, like I need the air that I breath.

As for ignorance. You can argue against my thinking on the subject all nigtht long. It wont change the fact that the definition of the word is a lack of knowledge. I choose to use it, often, because I want to break down the stigma that this word has taken on over the years. It is obsurd to be insulted by the word ignorant. We are born ignorant, we will die ignorant of something.

And, if you Choose ignorance over education, I don’t think you have much business putting your opinion on a thread in the Ordered forum.

So yes, I will specificaly attempt to sway the purposefuly self ignorant out of this forum. I will aslo attempt to do so in a manner which shows clearly why I am railroading them away.

[system]

My whole point is that YOU may require proof but not Religion itself. It works real good without it!

It does not require it from a bible, from prophecies from anything. Thats why Releigion is NOT a science.

re·li·gion ( P ) Pronunciation Key (r-ljn)
n.

Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

Its in the definition belief the word itself.

I would laugh if I saw a minister/priest doing his speach and going “And God handed down to him his commands, and we know this because we have Gods fingerprints and after carbon dating the paper, everything matched. Now, where was I…”

[system]

And, as I said, go back into the posts. I didn’t say that God didn’t exist because of lack of proof. I have never tried to disprove the existance of a creaor being.

[system]

Gotcha… I was just clarifing the bable of post I put earlier.

[system]

oh ok.

I like you btw Russian. You make ordered fun. You agree with me on enough to meet me intellectually on common ground, and disagree enough to make me fight for what I want to say.

[system]

Ditto Dude,
We need more people like you to make Ordered a hell of alot more fun! And as always your post are clear, consice and well written! ( a dream I can only hope to accomplish :beam: )

Now thats an Order thread topic : Can Russians Spell?

[system]

I’m very ignorant of proper spelling myself.

[system]

I was asked earlier for infomation by shakazulu

Your saying that Lillith is missing from any modern translation of the Bible, does that mean in the TORAH she does exist, please provide Hebrew lit. telling of her existance. I ask for hebrew lit. because the Bible is made up of 2 sections the old testament ( hebrew torah, and the new testament Jesus Christ) Please don’t be offended by that statement, I don’t know you nor your knowledge of the things we’re refering to, so I mention this so that you and I can remain on the same page, and personally I don’t want to get lost, I’m not a scholar, I’m not a pastor, I’m not a Bible Quiz show guy, I dont’ go around to chat rooms and message boards calling people heathens and telling them their going to hell… I’m a guy in love with God, that has a passion for web design so I hang at KIRUPA, and that’s why I’m here, which I’m sure is the same as all of you ( only the latter LOL)

Others are interested in me providing some sort of proof for my own statements about the bible being changed over the years. As I said, such proof is in the reading of old bibles. I have however found one of the original sources of the Lilith myth so I figured I’d throw it up there.

From the Haggadah (Jewish Legend from Midrash, Pseudepigrapha, and Early Kabbalah). Basicaly, a series of Jewish myth, oraly transfered through generations.

“The divine resolution to bestow a companion on Adam met the wishes of man, who have been overcome by a feeling of isolation when the animals came to him in pairs to be named. To banish his loneliness, Lilith was first given to Adam as wife. Like him she had been created out of the dust of the ground. But she remained with him only a short time, because she insisted upon enjoying full equality with her husband. She derived her rights from their identical origin. With the help of the Ineffable Name, which she pronounced, Lilith flew away from Adam, and vanished in the air. Adam complained before God that the wife he had been given had deserted him, and God sent forth three angels to capture her. They found her in the Red Sea, and the sought to make her go back with the threat that, unless she went, she would lose a hundred of her demon children daily by death. But Lilith preferred this punishment to living with Adam. She takes her revenge by injuring babes - baby boys during the first night of their life, while baby girls are exposed to her wicked designs untill they are twenty days old.”

It goes on like that discribing wards against this evil. Then goes on to describe Eva Adam’s second wife, created of his body to be subserviant to her mate.

[system]

*Originally posted by Maxtr0sity *
**Thanks, I think I’m inventing my own religion and going to practice my own beliefs. I wonder if that’ll actually work. :trout:

If it does work like that, everyone should make their own religion.

=) **

That’s called Unitarism:pope:

[system]

I say to hell with religion. It doesn’t matter who or what you believe is the creator of existence, as long as you’re a good person.

I personally am Roman Catholic, but I never go to church. I serve God in my own way. Each time I hold the door for someone entering a building, saying “Bless you” when someone sneezes, or going out of my way to help someone, I think it more than makes up for me not showing up for an hour every Sunday morning to hear the SAME bible stories I’ve heard for 18 years of my life.

The Good Book is CENTURIES old - IT HASN’T CHANGED! I think celebrating “mass” is redundant after a while.

Besides, why should I listen to representatives of one of the most corrupt organizations in the history of the world? The Pope is NOT divine, he IS human, and CAN and DOES make mistakes.

Believe what you will: Yahweh, Allah, Jesus, Bill Gates - I say who cares? Be a good person, think what you want to think, and keep your religion to yourself. We’ll all find out the answer sooner or later when we die … enjoy life until then!

[system]

I say to hell with religion. It doesn’t matter who or what you believe is the creator of existence, as long as you’re a good person.

Don’t you wonder?

I rely heavily on scientific beliefs. Most of my thoughts are based on science, and merely less than 1% on supernatural stuff.

If this is true, how did the world come into existence?

You find a watch, laying in the middle of the street. You pick it up and examine it; beautifully made. How did this watch get here? Did chemicals from the ground and the air mix to create these metals, and somehow fuse together to create an object that you perfectly know how to use and understand?

No; you assume that someone created the watch and, without their knowledge, dropped it.

It’s the same principle with creation; the universe came into existence by molecules of chemicals forming and exploding, mixing in the perfect way to create what we see today? It’s not possible. Of course, you have probably seen the specs about the chance of this happening: something like 1 in 1, followed by one thousand zeros.

Would it not be more sensible to believe in a divine intervention?

Sabbath for Christians means Sunday.

Actually, research shows that the Hebrews most likely celebrated the sabbath on a saturday. This day can vary for different people.

I doubt that you can answer these questions of course because you live in a little box, as Max would say, devoid of any learning beyond what a 2000 year old book tells you.

Have you all read the Bible? Each and every prophecy has come true, either in the rest of the bible or in recent times. How could a little book with over 400 prophecies prove each one to be correct? You must admit this would have to be one special book, Christian or not. :thumb:

[system]

I really don’t care much for those people who force their religion on you in places like school or outside of nightclubs.
People say that they are trying to “save your soul” but it seems more like the more “souls they save”, the better their chances to get into their “heaven.”

I recall hearing someone tell one of these “saviors” that he would rather spend his Sunday at the beach surfing, rather in a church. He said that “god made the beach, the ocean and the sky, not a church - man made that. The beach is my church and surfing is how I choose to give thanks to the lord.”

Nonetheless, the church recruiter didn’t get it. It was like he was brainwashed.

I grew up very non-religious, but after taking a few Chinese Philosophy classes, I began to think about the whole religious life.

God is what you want god to be.

If you want him to be some huge guy with a beard, good for you.
If your god is a vengeful god that keeps you from killing people, good for you.
If your god is hope for a better life after this one, right on.
If god is waking up everymorning alive, having the sun rise and the birds sing, your car not break down…etc - cool.

Religion should unify us but it does the opposite. Man has perversed it because everyone and every religion wants to be right.

Whatever religion makes you happy is the right one.
Including Atheism.

[system]

Then that would sure suck for me.
So you got me on a technicality.

Unfortunately, there are people out there who think killing is justified because of their religion. My previous post excludes them.

There is no “truth” out there…only the lies we choose to believe.

[system]

There is no “truth” out there…only the lies we choose to believe.

…

You seem to hold this little peice of truth as your own cushion to your illogical thought process;

Not really, I’ve just always wanted to use that quote.

I think that “truth” is relative. Because everyone is different and live different lives, our perception and opinions tend always be different.

[system]

you seem to be trying to say that morals and percieved truths are the same thing, they are not.
Just because you believe that killing someone for cash is wrong based on your religious teachings, and someone else agrees that yes, it is wrong, does not in any way prove that your religion is true.

People can go from a different starting point and still reach the same conclusion, which means they agree on the finishing point but can still voraciously disagree on the reasons for reaching that conclusion.

Therefore your religious beliefs are still a truth in your eyes, and the moral is an opinion you both hold based on different reasoning, but is in fact still not a truth, just opinion.