Atheism

talk
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I remember something about the Shroud of Turin mentioned here. Phil, that is probably not the actual shroud worn by Jesus. Radiocarbon dating puts the shroud at around 1290-1390 AD. The claims by various groups that the carbon was “damaged” during repair and restoration done in the 1400s is another hoax.

One of the more notable experts on this at the University of Texas, Steven D. Schafersman says this:

All empirical evidence and logical reasoning concerning the Shroud of Turin will lead any objective, rational person to the firm conclusion that the Shroud is an artifact created by an artist in the fourteenth-century. Arguments to the contrary by pro-authenticity supporters are tendentious and marked by appeals to specious reasoning and misinterpreted or fraudulent evidence. There are no valid reasons to perform any more scientific tests or examinations on the Shroud, for the ones already performed are more than adequate to demonstrate its true nature. Sindonology is a pseudoscience whose adherents will stop at nothing to preserve the appearance of authenticity, irregardless of the illogical, ad hoc, and scientifically-invalid arguments they must use to prop up their beliefs. To all sindonologists, I say: Get a life!
Couldn’t have said it better myself :slight_smile:

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Phil doesn’t believe that Carbon-dating is accurate. Therefore any dates provided by science are null and void in his opinion (if I remember correctly)

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Yeah, which is another reason I brought it up. It’s quite difficult to alter the carbon specifics of most objects. Fossils buried underground below salt water do not phase the fuzzy little carbon atoms. Also, there were four samples that were taken and sent to four different labs in different corners of the earth to ensure that the results would be as unbiased as possible.

Even many of the churches who once believed this to be true backed away from it after the scientific evidence was simply not true. It’s a really cool specimen regardless of whether it actually belonged to Jesus or not. It’s remarkable that such a fabric still exists.

The reason I bring this up is that I was browsing through some really old National Geographic magazine archives for research on carbon dating, and this story came up. I was led to believe from the threads here that no scientific study had ever been commissioned because the church refused. The church actually agreed in the late 1970s - though reluctantly - for the study.

Too bad nationalgeographic.com does not contain their older articles on archive. It’s Volume 157, Number 6, 1980…AD if anybody is interested.

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Phil that would mean that all the methods of judging the age of trees, dinosaurs, old buildings, etc. is flawed?

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Flawed, no… false, yes. Since this is a semi-religious discussion, I will add what I remember from our old discussions. Phil believes that the earth is around 5000 years old… 10,000 at most (from what I remember). So therefore its impossible for those dates to be accurate anyway.

Philbo- I hope you don’t mind me jumping in here, I’m just relaying information from what I remember from our previous discussions, because its been a little while since you have replied in this thread. :slight_smile: :stuck_out_tongue:

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People who believe in any religion are weak-minded and want to live by rules and standards set forth by others for the simple reason that they are unable to make their own decisions. Religion has done not done much for the world since its conception: War, hatred, genocide, discrimination to name but a few. These beliefs are responsible for countless other violent feuds. All in the name of GOD! There is No god, no Jesus, Allah, Buddha, no-one. We are totally and utterly alone in this existence. We are born, we grow up, we reproduce and then we die, end of story. That’s it. Deal with it.

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*Originally posted by tiger20 *
People who believe in any religion are weak-minded and want to live by rules and standards set forth by others for the simple reason that they are unable to make their own decisions.

I wouldn’t say most who follow religion are weak-minded. You are merely over generalizing. There are some better arguments for and against in this thread.

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That’s true, that was a bit of an over generalization.

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*Originally posted by tiger20 *
**People who believe in any religion are weak-minded and want to live by rules and standards set forth by others for the simple reason that they are unable to make their own decisions. Religion has done not done much for the world since its conception: War, hatred, genocide, discrimination to name but a few. These beliefs are responsible for countless other violent feuds. All in the name of GOD! There is No god, no Jesus, Allah, Buddha, no-one. We are totally and utterly alone in this existence. We are born, we grow up, we reproduce and then we die, end of story. That’s it. Deal with it. **

Where is Philbo when you need him? :smiley:

Originaly said by Joseph Stalin!!!
People who believe in any religion are weak-minded

Honestly, thats what Joseph Stalin and Lenin used to say. Which is wrong, weaker people do go to religion to find streingth, its true and they get it. But the strong get even stronger.
General Hanz Gudderian, Supreme Commander of the Eastern Front (1941-43) Noted, that soldeirs who are religious fight longer, stronger, faster and braver than those without religion.
War, hatred and whatnot is the creation of man. Read ‘The Prince’ by Makeaveli, he states that excuses for war should be made up through religios reasons. So the fact is, its man who uses it as a weapon not religion itself. If religion didn’t exist, we would find other excuses to kill ourselves (Like we did many times)

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*Originally posted by Sphynx *
*****Quote phrom Phil Jayhan, November 1st, 2003

It’s a weak person who aligns himself with the tyranny of the majority, simply because of numbers;***

that dephines communism to the last jot and tittle; :beam:

cheers~
pj :stuck_out_tongue: **

…uh… What?
Where is this comming from? And are we talking about Socialism, Marxism or Leninism?

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No, I am wondering whats communism got to do with it? And what form of communism? In Marxism, you can have a lone guy rulling being the tyrant of the majority he dosnet belong too. That statment is also aplicable to democracy aswell :wink:

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Yes I know! (And if I am drinking, whats wrong with that :stuck_out_tongue: )

Like I said earlier Tyranny of the Majority is Democracy!

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don’t hijack this thread commies!

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Oh sorry, I got confused and thought you where communist too…:sure:

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ha

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How does an atheist account for the existence of objective moral values?" I often hear. “If you don’t believe in God, then what is your basis for morality?”

We atheists find our basis for morality, of course, in nature. Where else would we look?

Most atheists think moral values are real, but that does not mean they are “objective.” They can’t be. A value is not a “thing”–it is a function of a mind (which is itself a function). To be objective is to exist independently of a mind. So, an “objective value” is an oxymoron: the existence in the mind of something that is independent of the mind.

Although most atheists accept the importance of morality, this is not conceding that “Morality” exists in the universe, a cosmic object waiting to be discovered. The word “morality” is just a label for a concept, and concepts exist only in minds. If no minds existed, no morality would exist.

Morality is simply the avoidance of unnecessary harm. Since harm is natural, its avoidance is a material exercise. Organisms suffer as they bump into their environment, and as rational animals, we humans have some choice about how this happens. If we minimize pain and enhance the quality of life, we are moral. If we don’t, we are immoral or amoral, depending on our intentions.

To be moral, atheists have access to the simple tools of reason and kindness. There is no Cosmic Code Book directing our actions.

Of course, relative to humanity, certain general actions can be deemed almost uniformly right or wrong. Without the Ten Commandments, would it never have dawned on the human race that there is a problem with killing? The prohibitions against homicide and theft existed millennia before the Israelites claimed the copyright.

The way to be moral is to learn what causes harm and how to avoid it. This means investigating nature–especially human nature: who we are, what we need, where we live, how we function, and why we behave the way we do.

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First off, atheism is a non-prophet organization… :wink:

I myself was not brought up in any religion really, but I have drifted very close to Christianity since I was 6 or 7 after reading about it… I just think that atheism is pointless, heh… Any great philosopher back in the day knew there a God… I just don’t understand why a lot of people I know don’t believe that? The big bang theory is bogus imo…

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Well Ampx, welcome to the forums. I will start out with this. I am atheist. I don’t understand why a lot of people I know believe in religion and gods and fate and destiny and divine intervention, but people still do. I have my beliefs because of the world around me and I believe in what I feel makes sense to me and what helps me make sense of the world. That is why atheism make sense to me and therefore why I “believe” in it.

Any great philosopher back in the day knew there a God

And at one point 99% of the people in the world thought that the Earth was flat. They also believed that the Sun and the other planets revolved around the earth.

The big bang theory is bogus imo…

Mine too. The functioning of the universe at the moment is beyond our realm of science, but that doesn’t mean that the answers aren’t out there. Science is always pushing forward. Refer back to my previous paragraph. Previously held beliefs: The Earth is flat. The Earth is the center of the Universe. Its possible to turn iron (and other metals) into gold (Alchemy)… etc… etc…

I personally don’t believe in the big bang theory anymore than most Christrians. Its probably the only thing that I agree with most Christians on.

And my personal view on things: The bible says (if I remember correctly) that god created man in his own image. I believe that the reverse is true. Man created god in his own image. Early humans feared the uncertainties of death and the questions of the unknown. Evidence for this can be found in archaeological deposits that associate sacrifices made to the bears (and worship centers) with human artifacts. This is probably because the early “men” viewed the bears (and other large carniverous animals) as bringers of death, and making sacrifices (of meat and other foods) kept their clanmates alive a wee bit longer.

Today people still hold to a religion because they fear the uncertainties of life. Religion today helps to ease sorrow and worry. Pain and suffering. It gives people something to look forward to. “Be good in this life and heaven everlasting is your reward.”

I honestly don’t buy it. Religion, to me, is just a way of controlling the masses. Thats what it was all about way back when. The middle ages, the inquisition, the creation of the Anglican Church. It was all about controlling people and keeping them from rebelling. It was all about power and money, even back in the times of Jesus (yes I believe that a man named Jesus existed).

In spite of all the things I have said, I do not believe that religion is a bad thing. I believe that many people need to hold on to their faith. It keeps people moving. I’m not sure what the world would be like if everyone subscribed to my ideology but I don’t think it would be a wonderful utopia.

My only plea is that you please show tolerance for all religions and all the varying levels of belief, from atheist to fanatic.

Cheers,
Jubs :cowboy:

PS- again, welcome to the forums. :slight_smile:

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*Originally posted by ameripax *
**… I just think that atheism is pointless. **

Exactly, we just don’t care, we don’t buy into all the B.S.

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The big bang theory is bogus imo…

I personally don’t believe in the big bang theory anymore than most Christrians. Its probably the only thing that I agree with most Christians on.

Why is this so hard to believe? It is the only explination that can be seen with your own eyes. Find and have a look at pictures of the “Horsehead Nebula” Stars and planets are being created there in the same way as the “BIG BANG” I can see this my 12 inch reflector scope.

Previously held beliefs: The Earth is flat. The Earth is the center of the Universe. Its possible to turn iron (and other metals) into gold (Alchemy)… etc… etc…

The Universe is filled with many cases where matter has evolved in extreme physical conditions.
It’s called nucleosynthesis. Light elements (those up to lithium on the periodic table) were mainly created in the Big Bang. All other elements are products of nuclear reactions occurring in stars and supernova explosions.

Look out your window at the sun. Our sun is converting hydrogen and helium into heavier elements as we speak. These are distributed throughout the universe via solar winds and supernova explosions. (see the post in random on the sun)