I think would go with A. It may be insane, but think of this:
Science discovers without a doubt that there is no god, never was a god, and never will be a god. Do you think that all of those religious people are just going to say, “Wow, I guess I was wrong.” No! 
Some may change, and begin to think differently, but the majority of them will continue to believe regardless of any evidence presented to them.
– All in good fun. [size=1]Figures everyone is always pickin on me… [/size]
Ahmed: Once again, you’re putting “holy books” into view. I’m atheist, there is no “holy book.” If theres not holy book for me, then there doesn’t seem to be a hell or heaven. Me reading any holy book would contradict myself in my beliefs, therefore, theres no point of reading them and it’d just lead me to “strong-atheism” like Jubba. 
Upuaut: Are you still an atheist? If not, what happened?
As for A or B, depending on whether he proves he is God or not. If he or she does prove it, then I might start believing in him, but theres a 50 50 chance of not.
Jubba:
Religion gives us many things. Mainly it gives us instructions on how to behave, and a set of moral values. Stuff we should and shouldn’t do. This may seem like common sense stuff in our time, but some people still need the guidance.
I don’t see the point of needing someone else to give us instructions in life. I give myself my own instructions in life and I’m doing well in it, guidance is just a way they control the religious people. I don’t think anyone should tell anyone else how to behave, and that includes “God” if it actually does exist.
Religion also gives its followers hope. Hope of eternal existence in a place of supreme happiness, rewarding you for the sufferings of your life. It eases peoples pain, and lets you put your worries somewhere else.
Point? Why do we need hope? This may sound cold hearted, but if someone dies, they die. Death is inevitable for now and if one dies, they go where ever they’re suppse to go.
Let’s say, for an example, my friends grandmother dies. He is upset, however, he believes that she is now looking down on him from her cloud in heaven where she is happy and feeling well again. He is happy that her suffering is over, but he looks forwards to the hope of seeing her again in the next world. Its this kind of hope that also helps to shape peoples behavior.
As for that, religion here is kind of an “excuse” for sorrow. It’s just a mask of religion that puts over people to calm them down. Religion is just a way to propaganda people to ease their pain, when if not, chaos can result.
The bible is another thing all together.
Jubba now, don’t go all religion on me, my mind is settled on atheist. I’m beginning to doubt your atheist-hood. :+)
or else you would go to hell…
There, it’s just a way to persuade people and almost like a propaganda. It gives the people that doesn’t believe in religion a reason to or a fear to. But once they realise the bigger circle, they can realise what we, or at least, I see.
It gives you something to look forward to.
So basically, if theres something to look forward to, then they don’t fear death? I don’t fear death and I don’t look forward to anything. I live life on a day by day basis and doing fine with it.
I personally feel that there is nothing after death.
Yay!
I think that religions are just a way for man to live forever and not have to worry about his actions because he is being guided by a divine force.
I personally don’t want to live forever. I’d imagine that my life would get boring at one point where theres really nothing else to do. Living forever might sound fun, but it all depends on many variables such as age. No one wants to live forever if they remain 103 forever.
or at least your soul is going to live forever. But you will still be alive (in a sense).
Soul (the thing, not the person :)) only exists in religion also, no one really can prove there is a soul in people. By soul, I think it’s more of a human conscious. The conscious may go somewhere else, where it thinks it’s somewhere else. But soul doesn’t exist in me.
I think it is what we do that really matters, and not what we think. Should I be comdemned to eternal torment because I didn’t believe, then so be it.
Absolutely true. :thumb:
Max: I suggest you go out and buy a bible (or borrow one from someone) and give it a read.
I’m stuck between reading some AS books and the Bible now. I’m going with AS. A Bible wouldn’t help me anymore in my current state of mind. No Bible for me.
I just believe that there is no, and will never be, proof.
Darn didly right. :thumb:
Invis: So you are still a religious believer? Do you pray?
This brings up another thing, praying is believing, but I do pray, but on a non religious basis. I sometimes pray to God as an excuse for luck before a test. Other than that, never ever. Anyone else do that?
=)
Sorry for the long post, and as for all of those that are confused on who said the quotes (ahmed), read where it says for ex. Jubba: or Invis: or Ahmed:.
=)
PS. Sorry for the long post.
*Originally posted by Maxtr0sity *
I don’t see the point of needing someone else to give us instructions in life. I give myself my own instructions in life and I’m doing well in it, guidance is just a way they control the religious people. I don’t think anyone should tell anyone else how to behave, and that includes “God” if it actually does exist.
That may work great for you, but some people do need that guidance. Especially since these religions were mainly developed a long time ago when this code of behavior was not so much of a common sense kind of thing. Also it gives people a reason to behave. The Catholic religion says that adultery is a sin. So if we have a Catholic man that is unhappy with his marriage and he is thinking of cheating on his wife, he may not do it because it is a sin. It is the smaller things like where religion is important. I do agree with you though. I feel as though I do not need anyone to instruct me, because I know what is right and what is wrong.
*Originally posted by Maxtr0sity *
**Point? Why do we need hope? This may sound cold hearted, but if someone dies, they die. Death is inevitable for now and if one dies, they go where ever they’re suppse to go. **
Hope gives people a reason to live and be happy. Again, this is not always necessary but in the difficult times we live in hope may be the only thing that some people have to hold on to. I agree that we live, we die, we rot, and thats the end of it. But that belief is not a very happy one. People want to believe that there is more because our existence here is just too short for them. They want to live forever, they want their to be a heaven for them to live in after the suffering they faced here on earth. Its just a way to make life less futile and give them something to look forward too.
If there was no hope of eternity in heaven, then people, who are now good, may not behave in the same manner. Likewise, if there was no threat of hell, many people may not check their behavior and do bad things because there would be no punishment.
*Originally posted by Maxtr0sity *
As for that, religion here is kind of an “excuse” for sorrow. It’s just a mask of religion that puts over people to calm them down. Religion is just a way to propaganda people to ease their pain, when if not, chaos can result.
Yeah, pretty much. Thats exactly how I feel, but think of this. Image if that mask wasn’t there. Image if all of those people out there were not happy and calm. Imagine if they were constantly depressed and violent. The world would not be a very happy place.
*Originally posted by Maxtr0sity *
**Jubba now, don’t go all religion on me, my mind is settled on atheist. I’m beginning to doubt your atheist-hood. **
No need to doubt. I have been constantly rethinking and analyzing my beliefs for the last 7 or 8 years. I’m very firm in my beliefs. 
*Originally posted by Maxtr0sity *
**There, it’s just a way to persuade people and almost like a propaganda. It gives the people that doesn’t believe in religion a reason to or a fear to. **
Exactly, almost. I think that was the point of the religions; to fear the common people into believing. “If you don’t believe in this you are going to hell!” That kind of thing.
*Originally posted by Maxtr0sity *
I personally don’t want to live forever. I’d imagine that my life would get boring at one point where theres really nothing else to do. Living forever might sound fun, but it all depends on many variables such as age. No one wants to live forever if they remain 103 forever.
Well yes and no. The point is that your soul would live forever in the paradise of heaven. You wouldn’t be 103, age wouldn’t matter, etc etc etc… I don’t believe that either.
*Originally posted by Maxtr0sity *
Soul only exists in religion also, no one really can prove there is a soul in people. By soul, I think it’s more of a human conscious. The conscious may go somewhere else, where it thinks it’s somewhere else. But soul doesn’t exist in me.
Well by you saying that the conscience goes somewhere else, you are implying that after death, there is some part of us that is still alive. Our conscience is merely a part of our brain that tells us what is right from wrong. It is us, just rationalizing with ourselves. It is not its own entity, it is a part of us.
*Originally posted by Maxtr0sity *
I’m stuck between reading some AS books and the Bible now. I’m going with AS. A Bible wouldn’t help me anymore in my current state of mind. No Bible for me.
If you ever do decide to read it, then do so as if it were a story. A novel. Do not look at it as though it is a holy document. Just be entertained by what you read in the pages. It may help you develop your ideas.
*Originally posted by Maxtr0sity *
I sometimes pray to God as an excuse for luck before a test.
Hello, contradiction. Yeah, I understand what you are saying here. I mean, you aren’t praying to god for assistance, you are merely saying something like, “Oh, god let me get an A on this test.” or something like that. I say things like “Oh, my god!” or “I swear to god” and stuff like that. Its just so in-grained in my dialect that I say it out of habit, not belief.
*Originally posted by Maxtr0sity *
If theres not holy book for me, then there doesn’t seem to be a hell or heaven. Me reading any holy book would contradict myself in my beliefs, therefore, theres no point of reading them and it’d just lead me to “strong-atheism” like Jubba.
Not necessarily. Reading the books is a great way to learn about the culture, religion, and heratige of a group of people. The more you know about another religion, the more you may be able to disput if a discussion should arise. Besides, the more you know, the smarter you are
I think thats all I have…
Ahh, long post!
Religion is almost like teaching people common sense and a way to behave. Without religion, people would be more “free minded” I guess but with the same common sense. They’re just rules I guess.
Hope gives people a reason to live and be happy.
I’m living and happy without hope.
Suffering, I don’t see the point of redeeming yourself for suffering. What are you people exactly suffering of? I’m certainily not suffering.
Image if that mask wasn’t there. Image if all of those people out there were not happy and calm. Imagine if they were constantly depressed and violent. The world would not be a very happy place.
That kind of reminded me of the first Matrix. :thumb:
I’m very firm in my beliefs.
Good.
Wipes imaginary sweat off of forehead
Well yes and no. The point is that your soul would live forever in the paradise of heaven. You wouldn’t be 103, age wouldn’t matter, etc etc etc… I don’t believe that either.
No one ever stated how old you are in heaven. It can might as well be the age that you died at. Therefore, still possibility. And about soul, that is also part of religion correct? I think the subject of soul has crossed into daily life too much.
you are implying that after death, there is some part of us that is still alive
I don’t think theres anything left after our death. We die, and all of ourselves are dead, nothing comes out, nothing lives. Harsh eh?
If you ever do decide to read it, then do so as if it were a story. A novel. Do not look at it as though it is a holy document. Just be entertained by what you read in the pages. It may help you develop your ideas.
I rather not read some million year old propaganda thankyouverymuch.
Its just so in-grained in my dialect that I say it out of habit, not belief.
Very true I think to every atheist, but not sure about religious people, do they say it to actual religion or just a saying also?
Reading the books is a great way to learn about the culture, religion, and heratige of a group of people. The more you know about another religion, the more you may be able to disput if a discussion should arise. Besides, the more you know, the smarter you are
This is coming from an anthropologist point of view though. As a person that’s not intrested in that stuff, I could actually care less. Plus, this knolege is no use to me what so ever.
=)
I think would go with A. It may be insane, but think of this:
Science discovers without a doubt that there is no god, never was a god, and never will be a god. Do you think that all of those religious people are just going to say, “Wow, I guess I was wrong.” No! Some may change, and begin to think differently, but the majority of them will continue to believe regardless of any evidence presented to them.
I’m not talking about them, just you and I. In my case, if Science definitively proved it one way or the other, then I would follow that proof until such a time as it was disproved. For the record, you’re right, a lot of people would ignore the proof for their own faith.
Maxtrosity writes
Upuaut: Are you still an atheist? If not, what happened?
As for A or B, depending on whether he proves he is God or not. If he or she does prove it, then I might start believing in him, but theres a 50 50 chance of not.
Well if you had proof and still denied his existance, like I said… I think that’s crazy.
As for my faith. Yes I was raised Atheist, and thought it to be the only reasonable view for many years. What happened is I educated myself in many fields, and had experiences which I know to be of a sane mind; both of these things have led me to the conclusion that there is likely to be something beyond this realm and that it could be clasified as supernatural. I still don’t believe in any sort of intelligent creator of the Universe. To me, we are all God, and he is just the composite of us and everything else. Even to call it a he is a misnomer to me.
Jubba:
quote:Religion gives us many things. Mainly it gives us instructions on how to behave, and a set of moral values. Stuff we should and shouldn’t do. This may seem like common sense stuff in our time, but some people still need the guidance.
I don’t see the point of needing someone else to give us instructions in life. I give myself my own instructions in life and I’m doing well in it, guidance is just a way they control the religious people. I don’t think anyone should tell anyone else how to behave, and that includes “God” if it actually does exist.
Ah then you don’t need religion do you? He didn’t say it was there to help you, just humanity in general. If you lead a good life without the bible, or faith, I say more power to ya.
quote:The bible is another thing all together.
Jubba now, don’t go all religion on me, my mind is settled on atheist. I’m beginning to doubt your atheist-hood.
What does reading or even following the tenants of the bible have to do with not being an Atheist? One can read a math book witout being a mathematician, one can read shakespear without being a poet. In each case the profession might help understanding of what’s being said, but that doesn’t mean that a Doctor can’t read and even enjoy shakespear.
So basically, if theres something to look forward to, then they don’t fear death? I don’t fear death and I don’t look forward to anything. I live life on a day by day basis and doing fine with it.
myself as well. Since I don’t believe in a conscious state after death, I can’t fear it. However, not everyone is as strong as you or I. Some people need help to be that strong.
This brings up another thing, praying is believing, but I do pray, but on a non religious basis. I sometimes pray to God as an excuse for luck before a test. Other than that, never ever. Anyone else do that?
I often voice concerns towards the Universe in order to ponder possibilities, but I believe it wrong to ask for anything of the Universe. If something goes wrong, it was meant to and no amount of praying is going to make a difference in my book. But no… I don’t think that there is any reason why you can’t pray, as long as you’re honest with yourself over it’s effectiveness; which you seem to be.
Long posts are the stock and trade of the Ordered forum… don’t sweat it.
Well not exactly. That last statement is more from a point of view of someone that just wants to learn as much as he can about the world around him. I do like learning about other cultures and religions, though…
I’m living and happy without hope.
Oh really? Or are you just living without a religious hope? I’m sure you have hope, and you encounter hope in your everyday life. You hope you’ll pass your test, you hope you’ll get to school on time. You hope you’ll get into a good college, you hope you can get a date for Friday night… hope is always there. Its just that sometimes people need more hope that just day to day.
I live day to day and I’m happy that way. I am happy with my life even tho some really bad things have happened to me. I wouldn’t take any of it back. I have hope, but I don’t hope for another existence. Like I said before, I merely hope for the love that I give to be returned to me by the one I love. And to be able to provide my family with the means to supply their needs.
Suffering, I don’t see the point of redeeming yourself for suffering. What are you people exactly suffering of? I’m certainily not suffering.
Well, I’m saying that for those that follow religion, this world is a suffering compared to the bliss of their heaven. Even though you make a claim at Atheism, when dissecting your beliefs, it is often necessary to look at things from the point of view of a theist. You must always look at both sides of the issue and I don’t think that you are doing that now.
I agree that you are probably not suffering. I am not suffering either. I am enjoying my life and I am enjoying the world around me. However there are many people out there that are suffering. For them the only escape may be to believe in something other than this world, because their life is not a happy one, so they hope that there is something else after this in which they will be happy.
Upuaut:
not everyone is as strong as you or I
Feels all special inside
If something goes wrong, it was meant to and no amount of praying is going to make a difference in my book. But no… I don’t think that there is any reason why you can’t pray, as long as you’re honest with yourself over it’s effectiveness; which you seem to be.
Also true, but I guess it’s just a whole luck ordeal. Wishing there is luck and it does exist and if luck is connected by a supreme being.
=)
PS. Shorter post.
*Originally posted by upuaut *
**I’m not talking about them, just you and I.
I understand, but my example was just that, an example of what might happen if the opposite were to occur.
Yes, I am insane, so I would go with A.
Jubba:
Oh really? Or are you just living without a religious hope?
Don’t doubt me on this, I don’t need religious hope, I don’t see much of the difference infact. Both hopes may or may not come true, it may all depend on luck and work of self.
I am happy with my life even tho some really bad things have happened to me. I wouldn’t take any of it back. I have hope, but I don’t hope for another existence. Like I said before, I merely hope for the love that I give to be returned to me by the one I love.
Looking on the bad things that happened in the past, I don’t really see them as bad things, they’re just pathetic mistakes to be learned from.
Well, I’m saying that for those that follow religion, this world is a suffering compared to the bliss of their heaven. Even though you make a claim at Atheism, when dissecting your beliefs, it is often necessary to look at things from the point of view of a theist. You must always look at both sides of the issue and I don’t think that you are doing that now.
So it’s not considered suffering as an atheist. But as a theist, they dream of this magical place called heaven as the whole part of the propaganda.
=)
There is one thing I want to clarify about my own beliefs though.
I keep using the term Supernatural because that’s the term that you guys started using. However, I do not feel that there is anything supernatural in the world. There are things that are as of yet unexplainable, and there are things for which there may never be an explination, but in the end, anything in the Universe is natural, and a part of that Universe. If god exists, even as an intelligent being, he’s not supernatural, just another natural part of the whole. likewise, if there was a “big bang”, I would consider that natural as well.
*Originally posted by Maxtr0sity *
**Don’t doubt me on this, I don’t need religious hope, I don’t see much of the difference infact. Both hopes may or may not come true, it may all depend on luck and work of self. **
I’m not doubting you, but you say that you live without hope. We all have hope. Hope is looking forward to something, and I’m sure you are looking forward to something in your future. So therefore, you have hope. You just don’t have a religious hope for an afterlife…
Thats all I meant.
lol I used the term supernatural? If I did I meant it to disput the existence of anything supernatural. I feel the same as you David. That the world and everything in it is natural and it is all meant to be there.
Upuaut:
keep using the term Supernatural because that’s the term that you guys started using. However, I do not feel that there is anything supernatural in the world. There are things that are as of yet unexplainable, and there are things for which there may never be an explination, but in the end, anything in the Universe is natural, and a part of that Universe. If god exists, even as an intelligent being, he’s not supernatural, just another natural part of the whole. likewise, if there was a “big bang”, I would consider that natural as well.
I rely heavily on scientific beliefs. Most of my thoughts are based on science, and merely less than 1% on supernatural stuff.
Jubba:
You just don’t have a religious hope for an afterlife…
Exactly, Jubba, don’t take anything offensivily although i know you most likely won’t, but just to state that. I’m always coming from a friendly point of view.
=)
for the record, I don’t believe in suffering. Suffering is a self induced state which prevents one from removing that which is causing the suffering. It is much better to act now, and suffer later if at all possible.
Alrit, I’m going out to lunch for a while, I’ll be back in less than a hour. This is a great discussion we’re having and it’s been a great morning gone not bored.
=)
*Originally posted by upuaut *
**for the record, I don’t believe in suffering. Suffering is a self induced state which prevents one from removing that which is causing the suffering. It is much better to act now, and suffer later if at all possible.
well said. 101% agreed.
I rely heavily on scientific beliefs. Most of my thoughts are based on science, and merely less than 1% on supernatural stuff.
no insult intended, but I’d be surprised if this is true. I thought for a long time that my entire existance was based upon science. Once you start reading scientific studies and discussing these with field scientists most realize how little they actually know of science.
Perhaps you do… I can’t say for sure… but it’s been my experience that most people who believe that they are well grounded in science, actually don’t know a lot of the principals of scientific investgation.
My beliefs have a scientific background, however my ideas don’t have scientific backing. I would definately believe scientific evidence over theology…
*Originally posted by Jubba *
**My beliefs have a scientific background, however my ideas don’t have scientific backing. I would definately believe scientific evidence over theology… **
…that’s the main reasoning behind “faith”: choosing to believe that which has no explanation. lately, i’ve been starting to doubt this whole faith thing. i never really understood the reasoning behind going to church every Sunday for the same thing each time.
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