One more thing: What if we didn’t do anything? We just let Saddam go one doing whatever he wants. Didn’t police him at all. Then say, one day he takes whatever weapons he has and he decideds to invade Iran. Then do you know what everyone is going to say?
“Where is the US? Why didn’t they do anything?”
We get in trouble if we act, we get in trouble if we don’t.
Do you think Britain was going to police Iraq? France? Germany? No, because thats our job.
We have to pick the lesser of two evils, and our government doesn’t care. Our choices are:
Don’t act and let smaller countries get fried. Then recieve the backlash for our inaction.
Act. Save the smaller countries. And recieve the backlash for acting.
I choose number 2.
Just be thankful I’m not the president. I would bomb a small country every other weekend.
Kirupa-
I disagree on some parts… MLK was getting in the way of people… you think the march on Washington had no effect, sit ins? Towns where shut-down when riot police came in and started assualting them… And Gandi was shot by an Indian, not a brit.
-All the troops are there because they wanted to be there! Volunteers, they are doing their jobs… which are sometimes dangerous. Alot of people have very stressfull and dangerous jobs but they do them. So I don’t feel they need my support they are just doing what they volunteered for. And espessialy in the eyes of the world… US military is the agressors who attacked a country who has done NOTHING to them… so can’t support the troops much.
What Collin powell said has some value but not all…
No land?:
AAF Camp Comanche Bosnia-Herzegowina
AAF Coleman Baden-Wuerttemberg Germany
AAF Heidelberg (Patton Barracks) Baden-Wuerttemberg Germany
AAF Stuttgart Baden-Wuerttemberg Germany
AAF Giebelstadt Bayern Germany
AAF Grafenwoehr Bayern Germany
AAF Hohenfels (CMTC) Bayern Germany
AAF Katterbach Barracks Bayern Germany
AAF Storck Barracks Bayern Germany
AHP Schweinfurt (Conn Barracks) Bayern Germany
AAF Hanau (Fliegerhorst Kaserne) Hessen Germany
AAF Wiesbaden Hessen Germany
AAF Kastner Japan
Camp Doha Kuwait
Camp Udairi Kuwait
Camp Able Sentry Kosovo Macedonia
Camp Bondsteel (Army) Kosovo Macedonia
Camp Monteith (Army) Kosovo Macedoniaa
AB Khost Paktia Afghanistan
AB Bagram Parvan Afghanistan
AB Kandahar Afghanistan
AB Mazar-e-Sharif Afghanistan
Diego Garcia (Air Force) BIOT
AB Thule Greenland Denmark
AB Rhein-Main Hessen Germany
AB Geilenkirchen (NATO Base) Nordrhein-Westfalen Germany
AB Hahn (closed 1995) Rheinland-Pfalz Germany
AB Ramstein Rheinland-Pfalz Germany
AB Sembach Rheinland-Pfalz Germany
AB Spangdahlem Rheinland-Pfalz Germany
AB Zweibruecken (closed) Rheinland-Pfalz Germany
AS Einsiedlerhof Rheinland-Pfalz Germany
AB Andersen Guam
AB Soto Cano (Camp Picket) - Army Honduras
AB Taszar Hungary
AB Aviano Friuli Italy
AB Ghedi Italy
AB Misawa Honshu Japan
AB Yokota Honshu Japan
AB Kadena Okinawa Japan
AB Kimhae Korea
AB Kunsan Korea
AB Osan Korea
AB Suwon Korea
AB Taegu (K-2) - Army Korea
AB Ali Al Salem Kuwait
AB Ganci (IAP Manas) Kyrgyzstan
AB Sola Sea Norway
AB Stavanger Norway
AB Clark (closed 1992) Luzon Philippines
AB Lajes Field Azores Portugal
AB Al Udeid Qatar
AB Eskan Village Saudi Arabia
AB Paya Lebar Singapore
AB Moron Spain
AS San Vito Spain
AB Incirlik Turkey
NSF Diego Garcia BIOT
NAS Guantanamo Bay Cuba
NSA Souda Bay Crete Greece
NAS Keflavik Iceland
NAS Sigonella Sicily Italy
NAF Atsugi Honshu Japan
NAF Misawa Honshu Japan
NS Yokosuka Honshu Japan
NAS Cubi Point - Subic Bay Naval Base (closed 1992) Luzon Philippines
NS Subic Bay (closed 1992) Luzon Philippines
NAS Roosevelt Roads Puerto Rico
NAS Rota Spain
No land? And what is this then…?
The USA has the most internationaly staioned bases than any other country! And the US military hasnt been the most holies of them either…
1953: USA backed overthorw of Prime Minister of IRAN and Install a Dictator in his place.
1954: USA overthrow of Democratic President Arbenz of Guatemala and 200 000 people die.
1963: Assassination of Diem for being corrupt and ineffcient.
During the Vienam war ara around 4 million people in South Asia die.
1973: USA backs the assassination of Democratic president Allende, and isntals Dictator Augusto. 5000 chileans die in the process
1977 USA Backed military rule of El Savador and around 70 000 savadorans die.
1980’s USA trains Osama bin laden and his terrorist groups to fight the soviets. And funds them 3 billion dollars
1981: After training and funding a Necaraguanina paramilatry gorup around 30 000 nicaraguans die.
1982: US funds IRAQ to fight IRAN
1983: US funds IRAN to fight IRAQ
1989: While removing Nicaragua from panama, US kills around 3 000 people.
1991: Restrictions and bombing of iraq kills around 500 000 children (Accroding to UN)
and many more!
I am not saying USA only did bad things, not at all! The removal of Noriaga, was a good thing, yet the people had to pay…
Alot of them where removed because it didnt favor the U.S.A. and the use of this kind of bullly tactics.
I dont know where you see 80% of the US population support it , its alot less, last time I checked… and lower because of absence of UN support. Most of the wolrd was against it? Dont you think there should be a reason to hear them out? Because the Gov. is not listing to that… some people have to resolve to these things to get our attention… we should consider their views, and stop the root of the problem…
-its like the drug war… the Gov cant stop it by getting rid of drug dealers, u stop it by getting rid of the drugs! Same thing here…
RB - good points, but the sit-ins were usually done in areas where businesses refused to serve African Americans. The protests are going on in areas where people, who have nothing whatsoever to do with the war, suffer because of their protesting. Regarding the towns being shut down - I don’t know, that may have happened. Gandhi was shot by someone who didn’t share his views on independence - I don’t believe nationality should play a role when ideologies are involved.
If one wants to protest, one can go to Washington DC. A place like NYC where traffic is bad enough as it is is not the place to be voicing your opinions on a national issue. Is the governor of NY going to change the war’s direction?
Also, the numbers are before the Baghdad people cheering in the streets. So it is probably higher.
It is difficult for one to discern between “acceptable” forms of protest and protests which carry less meaning. I guess the protestors and the world would rather have Saddam kill off thousands of people instead of having us liberate them.
*Originally posted by Jubba *
**
In response to your numbers:
Yeah, so. Not every American is protesting in the streets. There is going to be a split in the publics thoughts regardless of the topic, or country. Why restate the obvious.
Of course not. War is never worth it, but when you give the mother****er 11 years to get out, or at least cooperate, then something had to be done. He wasn’t going to listen to words, so we had to do something about it.
No one ever knows. If we had known that he was going to be such a bastard we wouldn’t have put him in power. Same with Osama Bin Laden.
The US doesnt need encouragement. They know exactly what they can and cannot do.
Add them to every other country/ethnicity/minority in the world. Once again, who cares?
**
In response to your response to my numbers.
I was just saying that all the Iraqis are happy and therefore saying that this war was bad for the Iraqi people is still a valid argument.
So if the war wasn’t worth it then surely it was a good idea to protest.
That doesn’t really counteract my point.
Yeah but obviously if this war had gone really badly then there would be more Americans against it and therefore harder for them to carry on attacking countries.
Who cares? of course you should care if Arabs hate America. There could be another 9/11 and then the American government will have an excuse to go and attack another middle eastern countrie, and then they’ll hate America more and do another terrorist attack…
First not all countries want a US preasance… not at all!
Even the germans have the RAF group against amercian presance… in Korea… even if it looks like without the US. Nkorea can make pancakes out of the south, they still want US. military gone… the list goes on…
Thanks for the source kirupa… but remeber… the news aint showing the people against it… and no people will show it either… they are afraid of repurcussion from the Rebels-Coalition-And anti-saddam iraquis… but I am sure they will be happier and all that good stuff… I just dont think they realise: yes they will have a higher standart of living… but now they are basicaly a U.S. satelite state…
Even though I rather be in a satelite state of the US then with uncle Saddam… Its just a point that they are not totaly free…
They cant build a large arsenal, they must support the U.S. or at least the Gov must. They can’t build nuclear facilities or large offensive armies…
Some may argue… thats good, so they don’t threaten us or israel… but look it a it from a neutral point of view, their soverignty has been compromised…!
I think that is the only point he’s making Phil… and I agree that this could be a problem… so should you if you believe in the stuff you’ve discussed with me.
how much has Japan spent each year since 1945? I don’t think that they would consider themselves a US property.
I’m sure you will find that the people of Japan are much better off today than they were under Imperial rule. How about France? They were under Hitler’s regime… Did France become a US satellite? Did Germany?
Don’t get me wrong. I like the fact that people question authority, but does the US really have a history of conquering, or having a puppet gov’t, or changing the culture outright and intentionally? I ask this because, as far as I know, we don’t.
he’s just saying became stellite “like”. And yes, both of those countries have been explicitly linked to the US for years economicaly. Not until the “Euro” came out has that changed at all, and even with it’s introduction the change is small.
Your country was founded on war, your history is filled with war, and obviously your present contains war.
What do you think is going to happen? The United States is just a very violent, militarily active, and very strong country. There’s going to be more in the future. Already there are hints towards Syria going the way Iraq did.
IMO-
I REALLY don’t like the protesters that go out and block things and yell things.
I won’t tell you why, but please don’t ‘hate’ me for my opinion, as I have them. I have judged them not only by opinions, but words and actions as well.
Protesters - Don’t piss people off. Why don’t you go fight for the Iraqi’s, leave people like me out of it, and stop insulting good people.
Every time I hear someone yelling out against Bush, my impression of them is dropped to ‘a pest’ or ‘an idiot.’
You can be against the war. I’ve always been open to believing what you want. But when the Jahova Witnesses come to my door, I get a hose and spray them till they run.
That’s trespassing, and I don’t want your religion. Don’t push things opinions on me.
I have good freinds who are Jehovas witnesses!
Dude thats just mean!- but I must admit a bit funny!
-Still mean!
And Rev, I am not trying to bash the US. I love this country!
But it has done bad things in the past (and present)
Not ALL bad things just some… in the name of Democracy and to “fight” communism, US has installed dictators and supported terrorist groups all over.
-Zaire, the “president/dictator” was installed just because he said he hated communists.
Guatemala, President is overthrown… because of a a CEO of some fruit company there, was the secretary of something in the White house… we overthrew him, put a dictator loyal to us.
I didnt know it either… I just had to look it up. Yes I agree sometimes the best came out of it. Japan and germany owes their economy to america. Not to say they couldnt have done it without us but we sure helped! But some havent been that lucky,
And look up at pentagon.gov US battle docotorine:
Not to allow a state or nation to become powerfull enough to chalenge the authority, or in strenght the USA. Thats why they are afraid of the Euro to get to powerfull.
USA, very violent… sure… but so is every other country except jamaica!
Lets not forget Germany pushing two world wars, and how about Russia? And in the Philipines they are always fighting, either the Rebel guerrillas or the aboriginese. And how about in serbia, where they have been killing themsleves since the dawn of time! There is an always was war here… US is just as violent as any other country! The only diffrence I see is that it has been more than 100 years since there was a war on your soil (not counting pearl) … and thats sets you appart…
Omg I just came to an epihany… Maybe that is the problem…
Maybe thats why in the States we are so for war, because there hasn’t been battles here… sure we had 9/11 but that was more of a tragedy than a war. And now I am thinking historicaly, during the first world war, even when germany surrendered the citezens back home felt angry that they did, because they lived relativly well compared to the troops. As they didn’t experiance war… they wanted another one…
And maybe because of that , the US public dosent know what its like to live during a time of war… when it directly affects you…
During WW2 David Webster, a USA Paratrooper, 101’s airbrone, Easy Company, A student of Harvard, wrote home answering his mom’s letter: “Why do you want the war to end so early? Why would you want Germany to surrender now? We cannot afford another war, this one must end their lust for war. We have to bring the fighting to their streets, to their homes , to their schools and yards. They must experiance what war truly is…”
David Webster, during operation Market Garden. 1944.
my boyfriend’s (WhipperSnapper on Kirupa.com) brother is serving in Iraq right now. His dad is in the peacekeeping troops in Bosnia. I do support the troops and they are doing what they have to and what they took an oath to do. I think the troops deserve the utmost respect. that being said, not all the troops are saints. not in the U.S. military, not in any military.
now as far as bush goes, i don’t like him. i disagree with his administration and their policies. they didn’t go to war to rid iraq or “weapons of mass destruction” because if that was their interest, they would already be in north korea (who has openly said that it has weapons of mass destruction). the U.S. needed a reason to go into Iraq but the real interest is Iraqi oil, which the U.S. will most likely control now that they have ousted Saddam.
the above statement does not in any way mean that i like saddam. he needed to be removed. he definately isn’t a noble leader, but when you think about it, neither is bush.
and the protesters, I wish I could have been in New York when that was going on. I believe that there are smarter ways to protest than causing public distrubances but i still respect the protesters and what they are trying to do.
Like I said, i have my reasons for not supporting them. I mean first of all this aint 40’s where the freedom of the world is at stake, we are puvurising a tin pot dictatorship where the biggest enemy of the US military is the us military itslef! I dont hate the troops or dislike them, and this has nothing to do with if I am against the war or for it.
I just see it as the troops are doing their job. What else should we ask of them? “Thats why they have shiny helmets and guns” (Malhr) They all volunteered to be there, no one was forced in to the army. I really don’t see a single reason to support them. If we support them, lets start organizations to support our Doctors! I mean cmon they have stressfull jobs and everything, so lets go and support them with bumper stickers and hospital flags, how is that any diffrent? Sure the troops can get killed, but how many acctualy did get killed from enemy fire? And thats the risk they where aware of when they joined!! And even if doctors dont really have a high chance of getting shot, they have the insane stress levels, and they have to go for ten years of school before they can even touch a patient!
Just my point of view.
P.S.
And living in hawaii, I see alot of soldeirs everywhere, and there are SOOO many jackasses in the military its not funny!
I think that is the only point he’s making Phil… and I agree that this could be a problem… so should you if you believe in the stuff you’ve discussed with me.