Saint, It seems that you where raised mostly in Catholic surrounding, or maybe educated that way, that maybe the reasons you have never heard of em.
*Originally posted by AnOraK *
**
“for so God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son so that whosoever shall believeth in him will have everlasting life”
is that not saying, believe in the son of god or you will not get to heaven?
**
The Catechism of the Catholic Church doesn’t say that you Have to be Catholic to be judged into Heaven. You don’t even have to know who Jesus is, that is if you cannot know who he is. If you’ve made the choice not to believe in him when you do know that you can learn about him, then your getting farther from Heaven.
And if the religon itself is trying to be manuplative, what is it trying to make people do?
Religon is also not just to explain what happens after death, but almost every religon explains the origin of Earth and mankind. Religon has actually been defined as the “belief and relationship between man and the supernatural.” Man is related to the supernatural (God) because we are created by him, and we will see him after death.
It’s hard to understand Atheism too, because everything had to be created from something, if you trace back every single element, it had to come from something.
And also… :-\
*Originally posted by s-fx *
**My opinion about religions is that, religions start war. **
I’d say that most wars start from Imperialistic desires.
For me, it gets creepy when people assume Jesus and the Bible are exclusive mediums OF the Catholic church.
My opinion …
What some don’t realize is that Jesus and the pope are mutually exclusive. The pope does NOT have a hotline to heaven, whereby he can make authorized alterations to God’s Word. He tries and many follow, but it’s all man-made corporate crap. Easy. The Catholic church (as a title and the entity we know today) was NOT the original church, as the pope would like to have you believe. Luther split when he saw what man was starting to do .–> MANIPULATE and redesign the entire landscape of Christ’s church. Catholicism is akin to what we know as “religion” … Christianity is more akin to faith. Luther, in his defiance against the corruption of the Catholic steamroller, worked to maintain the integrity of the original church. It’s too bad the titles got all mixed up and the term “protestant” sounds like an anti-Christian organization. In reality, it’s the other way around. The Catholic church is Satan’s vehicle. [Zoinks, that’ll rock a few boats, eh?]
K, I’ll stop now. Just wanted to pose a more accurate picture to those in question. I’m not trying to offend anyone … just trying to reveal the side many haven’t seen.
Rock on!
:player:
I was raised Mormon…
I was always amazed at how many people thought that Mormons have “their own Bible.”
The truth is, the Bible was written by man. They may, or may not, have had help from a Supreme Being, but that is where faith comes in. The worst part, is that the Bible which is used by all religeons who use the Bible, was translated by an English King, who didn’t like the way the Bible was being interpretted. There are hundreds of mistranslated passages… So the “Word of God” has been changed hundreds, if not thousands, of times since it’s inception.
Unless you read the original text, and understand it as it was written, then the Bible is just a book written by an English King several centuries ago, not by the “Hand of God” 3000 years ago.
JMO
Rev
James I wasn’t it? You’re absolutely right Rev. What’s more the Anglican church - one of the largest in the world - was set up because another monarch fancied a new wife. Problems with translations have been a perrenial problem for the church, as has the pandering to pagan religions to make christianity more appealing.
An example of both of these is the elevation of Mary Mother of God to a prominant position in the church. This was apparently because many other religions had maternal deities, and Christianity really had nothing to offer people in this respect. What’s more we know know taht the Hebrew word for “virgin” is better translated as “Young Unmarried Woman”. Not as in “person who hasn’t had sex”. This throws a monkey-wrench in the works as far as the Immaculate Conception is concerned.
On an aside - Heaven and Hell? what? you’re judged on seventy odd years and then divided into eternal dam nation and endless happiness. Come off it - that’s just silly.
It’s hard to understand Atheism too, because everything had to be created from something, if you trace back every single element, it had to come from something.
Atheists just believe in the lack of existance of God. What you’re refering to here are the Scientific arguements about the origin of the Universe. I understand how this is confusing since most Atheists follow scientific principal, but the fact is that most who follow it, (as with most who follow any other faith) have little to no understanding of the truth behind the scientific theories concerning this issue. Nothing comes from nothing. The theory of the big bang does not state that the Universe was created from a none existant state.
Anything more than this would be quite impossible to explain since I have only a remote understanding of the subject myself. Just keep in mind that the concept of “something from nothing” is a falicy which is only spread by those with a weak understanding of the nature of the Universe.
And also…
quote:
Originally posted by s-fx
My opinion about religions is that, religions start war.
I’d say that most wars start from Imperialistic desires.
You’re probebly actually right on this account… The number of deaths due to Religious reasons verse political ones still weights heavier on the side of the Religious.(especially if you are going to include Atheism among the “religious”.) The Crusades are often cited by people trying to prove religion to be blood thirsty, but the Crusades, despite all the deaths involved, are only a scratch on the surface.
Granted, Religious beliefs have been around for over 20K years, and Atheism in any significant numbers has really only had influence within the last several hundred years. That’s something that a lot of Atheists will convieniently forget when argueing against religion.
An example of both of these is the elevation of Mary Mother of God to a prominant position in the church. This was apparently because many other religions had maternal deities, and Christianity really had nothing to offer people in this respect. What’s more we know know taht the Hebrew word for “virgin” is better translated as “Young Unmarried Woman”. Not as in “person who hasn’t had sex”. This throws a monkey-wrench in the works as far as the Immaculate Conception is concerned.
Good point to bring up. 
On an aside - Heaven and Hell? what? you’re judged on seventy odd years and then divided into eternal dam nation and endless happiness. Come off it - that’s just silly.
For the record, Hell is a misconstrude concept. Origionaly there was a place in the middle-east which was a desolate area, it became known as pergatory, and sprung off various legends about a land of fire and brimstone. All original references to “death without knowing the Christ” refer to a state of the soul being “lost”. That is to say, a soul which is given over to “the Lord” for sheparding, is given eternal life. A soul which does not know Christ, or which sins against the “Lord”, is said to be destroyed, not ****ed to hell. Again, such concepts were changed when a Pope (dont ask me which one) cannonized hell into existance. So maybe hell exists, I can’t say it doesn’t… but it makes no sense to me why God would alter the state of the Universe. If he wanted man to have a pact with him concerning sin and redemption, then he should have planned that from the start, AND he should have implimented that policy among all people of the earth instead of just a small cult from Mesopotamia.
(disclaimer: Cult by definition is an unestablished faith. When I refer to the Christians as being a cult it is because at the TIME they were a cult, by definition.)
My big issue with God and the Christian church is very simple, and I’m willing to bet eternity on this one facette of “truth”.
a being is not supreme if it seeks worship.
That is a fact that I will argue with God himself if I’m ever given the chance. Worship of anything is antithetical to what it means to be human. You are given free will, not subserviance. To be given a gift such as free will… the single most powerful and pricless gift that one’s creator could possibly give to his creation, and to throw it away in posturing to one’s creator is obscene. At least, my creator thinks so.
*Originally posted by reverendflash *
**very untrue.
if you hate these threads, then why are you replying?
Sometimes it is best to not reply… Seriously… Post counts mean nothing, so why reply to something you aren’t interested in?
Rev**
I’m replying to ventilate my opinion on the tread.
You suggest opening a new thread just to do that?
no, but your post was nothing but inflamatory. Your ventilation could have been to just <u>not</u> reply. This is <b>ordered</b> where discussions are taken place with a college level maturity. Your post, in my opinion, was not needed, and could only cause problems.
That was the reason for my statement.
Rev
*Originally posted by saintdorothea *
**It’s hard to understand Atheism too, because everything had to be created from something, if you trace back every single element, it had to come from something. **
Says who? That is your belief that everything has to come from something. There is current research underway in which scientists are attempting to create a living organism from a pool of nothing. The different elements interact and begin to pair up and act as though they are a living cell and eventually transform into one. I can’t find any recent data but as soon as I do I will post it.
Also, who says we can just be? Why does there have to be an explanation for everything? The earth is here, lets just live on it and enjoy our lives.
Any questions you may have about atheism and alternate ideals can be found here: News Wire » Internet Infidels
Jubba, there is a difference in energy/matter being created and a cell being created from atoms. As far as we know, energy/matter can’t be created.
David I think I’m pretty much in agreement with you here, but just to clarify:
That is to say, a soul which is given over to “the Lord” for sheparding, is given eternal life. A soul which does not know Christ, or which sins against the “Lord”, is said to be destroyed
What then is meant by eternal life if not some “altered state of the universe”, how else can eternal life be realised. You’re dead - so it’s clearly not part of this world. For it to be anything then it would have to be another life, within which you knew both yourself and Christ. Which is only possible in a radically altered universe, isn’t it?
I realize that, but my statement was an example of something from nothing.
*Originally posted by Jubba *
**There is current research underway in which scientists are attempting to create a living organism from a pool of nothing. The different elements interact and begin to pair up and act as though they are a living cell and eventually transform into one.
/ **
This doesn’t make sense to me. If it is a pool of nothing, and absolutely nothing, where do these different elements that interact come from? These elements have to come from somewhere!
*Originally posted by Jubba *
** Also, who says we can just be? Why does there have to be an explanation for everything? The earth is here, lets just live on it and enjoy our lives.
/ **
Not to be offensive, but this answer sounds like you do not seek the truth. I do not think Earth would be very pleasing if everyone had this mindset and we lived freely, ignoring the search for truth.
And also…
a being is not supreme if it seeks worship. That is a fact that I will argue with God himself if I’m ever given the chance. Worship of anything is antithetical to what it means to be human. You are given free will, not subserviance. To be given a gift such as free will… the single most powerful and pricless gift that one’s creator could possibly give to his creation, and to throw it away in posturing to one’s creator is obscene. At least, my creator thinks so.
I wouldn’t say God seeks worship. You are given a free will. If God wanted all men to worship him, He would make them do that. Jesus also never appears to seek worship. He never commanded people to worship Him.
Also, if worship is antithetical to being human, you saying that about 90% of all the humans that have lived on Earth are not living their true nature. I cannot think of any civilization that has ever developed without some sort of religon and worship of a god or gods. It is normal for humans in a civilization to somehow explain creation and develop a religon with a god or gods.
It is normal for humans in a civilization to somehow explain creation and develop a religon with a god or gods
That’s because religion and gods were once how humans explained the universe. The world was flat, storms were caused by God, or Gods, who had placed us here in their own image.
Now we have science to explain these things and we know that the world may look flat but its actually round, that storms are caused by butterflys and that we are actually all the distant offspring of apes.
It doesn’t make that much more sense does it really? But that’s the point - religion gives people meaning and people need meaning. It’s actually much harder to accept that we are no different to any of the other animals on this planet and that we don’t have a purpose and that when we die, we die.
It’s a bit easier now because life is a little easier, but if you were faced with those truths when you were living the tough scuffle a few hundred years ago, you’d probably find a cliff, and jump off it.
*Originally posted by saintdorothea *
**Not to be offensive, but this answer sounds like you do not seek the truth. I do not think Earth would be very pleasing if everyone had this mindset and we lived freely, ignoring the search for truth. **
But what is this truth you speak of? Why does it matter that the truth is found? I live. I die. Why does it have to extend beyond that? What makes us so special that we are granted an afterlife?
I agree that the earth might not be a pleasant place if everyone were to think as I do, that is why I am glad that there is religion, there is order, there is a code of conduct for people to follow. I know what is right and I know what is wrong. I know what I should and shouldn’t do. I don’t need the fear of a divine being to make me behave, I have my own moral code to follow.
I seek a truth, but it is a personal truth. The truth I seek is my own. I care only about those that matter to me. I want the best life I can provide for my family and I seek happiness. I try to do good for my fellow man whenever possible and I try to make sure that my fellow man does good as well. If a god should exist and he smites me for the life I live, just because I never believed in him, then that isn’t a god that I would want to live under anyway.
*About the elements: Why can’t they just be? Thats my point. Why does there have to be a reason. I’m a very science based person, but there comes a point when you have to say, “Who cares?” Why does it matter when the Earth was formed? How it formed? Who formed it? Where it came from? Does it really matter? You are still going to live your life, and die when your time comes. The only truth that you will ever find is the truth that belongs to you.
People will believe whatever they want to believe. People usually believe in something that makes their lives easier, it gives them comfort. My personal beliefs offer me no comfort when I am down, or sad, or depressed. I stick to them though because they are what I believe in, and I believe in them in a very strong manner. I am constantly analyzing and rethinking my beliefs to ensure that I am indeed following them. So in that, I am true my beliefs, and true to myself, and that is all that I think really matters in the long-run.
Your belief is personal. Even if you are a religious person, your beliefs may differ from someone of the same faith. Your truth is the same. My truth is that nothing exists and death brings death. Your truth may (probably does) differ from mine, but your truth probably also differs from David’s truth. So saying that I do not seek the truth does offend me in a way, but I will let is slide ;). I do seek the truth, but since I believe in the things I do, I have already found all the truth that I need to live my life.
If you would like me to elaborate on my personal beliefs then I will, just ask. If anyone was offended by anything I posted, please accept my apologies and let me know.
David I think I’m pretty much in agreement with you here, but just to clarify:
quote:
That is to say, a soul which is given over to “the Lord” for sheparding, is given eternal life. A soul which does not know Christ, or which sins against the “Lord”, is said to be destroyed
What then is meant by eternal life if not some “altered state of the universe”, how else can eternal life be realised. You’re dead - so it’s clearly not part of this world. For it to be anything then it would have to be another life, within which you knew both yourself and Christ. Which is only possible in a radically altered universe, isn’t it?
I’m not going to state what the answer is. If I knew that I would hardly be searching for anything. However, think on this. In the budhist belief system the soul is not transcended to Nirvana until all of the problems of that soul are solved (in layman’s terms anyway). In the process it is recycled back to earth over and over again. Now in the Egyptian belief structure, another prominant one of that age, and a precursor to many of the concepts found in Christianity; The soul is either moved into the Umbra to spend eternity with the gods, or it is lost to the abyss. It ceases to exist.
Christians have taken much of their religion from the beliefs of others, so I am left with little to conclude other than the concept of going to heaven is just another way of explaining Nirvana, and going to hell is just another way of explaining the abyss. In the end though you can’t use utter destruction as a deterant for sin on earth. Why should it matter if your soul ceases to exist, what sins you commited in this life? No the Christians realized, if they wanted to keep stringent rules upon the behavior of individuals, they would need a concept which instilled fear in their followers. Eternal torcher… now that has a nasty ring to it.
So yeah, to me it seems like a really good boogie man story told to frighten children into behaving the “right” way. Now wether or not that way is really right is the answer that I cannot give you.
*Originally posted by upuaut *
Eternal torcher… now that has a nasty ring to it.
This goes along with my idea that religion is another way for man to live forever as well. Because surely, eternal pain and suffering is much better than ceasing to exist completely. Just another idea of mine. I have many when it comes to religion so I’m sure we’ll have a great discussion when we meet up
seems like man has always had a fascination with the idea of eternal life. I like the egyptian’s eternity. If you’re name existed, writen somewhere, you were still alive… your soul lived on. When every copy of your name was destroyed, then your soul was destroyed as well.
kind of creepy… but kind of cool too.
<babble>
*Originally posted by saintdorothea *
**Hello!
I hope I do not offend anyone, as I am not trying to. But anyway, this is what I have to say.
Whenever I think about different religions other than than my own, I realize that I’ve never really met anyone who is a faithful Muslim/Hindu/Buddist/Etc… **
Well, part of that is that you live in the USA. I went to the us and everyone was either a W.A.S.P, a catholic, or black. I live in canada, and on my street there is just about everyfaith imaginable, and catholic isn’t majority either.
as for the whole thing about how you haven’t heard about anyone that isn’t catholic do something for their religion,
one is probably because this is what is being preached to you, not those of other faiths
two suicide bombing is considered a religious act, so yes you have actually.
three is that (from what i know of the catholic faith courtosey my next door neighboors) the catholic is a very, (oh whats a good word?) extravagent (perfect) religion. If you wish to disagree, look at a RC church, then look at say, a prodestant, or anglican church. the RC church is very, er, exsesive. anglican churches in comparison are rather bare.
Personally, I dont care much for religion. Sounds like the product of someones drinking game if you ask me. Lets look at the christian faith, for example.
sorry, nevermind what i was going to say, a comidian called George Carlin phrased it better than i could. (Incase you were wondering, George Carlin played the role of conductor (the tiny little magical guy) on thomas the tank engine before becoming a comedian. He is very vulgar now, the kid shows do it everytime)
Religion has actually convinced people, that there is an invisible man, living in the sky, watching everything you do every minute of everyday. And the invisible man has a special list, of 10 things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these 10 things, he has a special place, full of fire, and smoke, and burning and torture, and anguish where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry, forever and ever till the end of time
but he loves you.
he loves you, and he NEEDS MONEY
well, i think thats about how i see it.
so then you ask, what do you believe in Copper my boy? Science. Partially because it lets you be free to believe what you want, etc. etc. etc. you know the drill. But that doesn’t mean i completely disavow any knowleadge of other religious, no no no, on the other hand (you have different fingers) i try to learn as much as i can about other religions. i dont believe in certain things that they preach (such as god, i find it mighty hard to believe there is an all mighty being of any sort(s)) but the meaning in all religions is to be a good person all around(well, maybe not some, satanist cough satanist) and thats what i’ve found.
</babble>
Copper, your post sounds to me like you know absolutely nothing about the Christian religion and haven’t spent more than 15 minutes in your life learning what it’s about.
Most protestant religions are based on the fact that you can murder 200 people, but still get into heaven if you believe in God. Breakign 1 commandment once in your life doesn’t send you to hell.
It’s not like churches take your money and go to Vegas with it. It’s either used for buildings/maintenance on the church you are using or to buy food for people in other countries and stuff like that.
I don’t know what a WASP is. But catholic church is much smaller than the protestant church in America. Plus there are many muslims, buddhists, hindu(ists?)…
Like it was said to someone before, just cause you’ve been to one or two cities in a country of a few hundred million people, don’t make generalizations. And I don’t think “black” is a religion, I think that was a very racist comment.
