i sorta tried to read the bible once…sorta
It is not an easy read.
ps I like your footer.
*Originally posted by upuaut *
**We are all busy and have no time to read your ignorance. **
Well, yes and no. I’m not busy, I have a week off. I’m sure I can come up with some response. 
Working on it now…
Let me start by quoting Voltaire:
*I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall defend, to the death, your right to say it. *
While keeping that quote in mind, I will say this: I will defend your right to practice whatever religions makes you happy, however I urge you to not infringe on my right to practice what I believe in.
Now with that said:
It seems that some of you athiests are just deceiving yourselfs. Some of you just want to seem different. Some of you don’t know why you are athiest but you do not know what else to believe. Some of you are just to lazy to read the bible and take one hour out of their week to pray. Some of you are afraid of the truth. Some of you are to proud to submit yourself to a greater being. Some of you are just lost. And well for those who aren’t like this, keep reading…
This is by far the most insulting thing I have ever read. But I will let that slide and give you the benefit of the doubt with my response. I’ll break it down piece by piece.
It seems that some of you athiests are just deceiving yourselfs.
Really now… this is a thread about atheism. A young man started this thread and he interested in learning more about it. You come in and state that we are just decieving ourselves? How inconsiderate can you be? What if I just walked into your church and started spouting blasphemous comments during your comfirmation ceremony? Thats pretty much the same as what you did there!
Some of you just want to seem different.
I don’t really know how large a part of your every day life religion plays, but for me, it doesn’t play much. I wake up, I do my work, I go to sleep. My friends and I don’t talk about religion or discuss things like this everyday, so saying that I’m (or anyone for that matter) is Atheist just to be different is a very ignorant comment to make. Thats kind of like saying someone is claiming to be homosexual “just to be different”
Some of you don’t know why you are athiest but you do not know what else to believe.
I know 100% how, why, and when I became atheist. I started out Roman Catholic, and I was very devout in my beliefs. I will come back to this later. But for now I’ll just say once again, you need to check yourself because your comments just seem to be going downhill. Being Atheist is quite a scary thing when you think about it. There is no promise of an afterlife. There is no comfort of a better tomorrow. The fact that our lives are completely in our own hands is not a very comforting thought either. No one would choose to become atheist unless they thought about it long and hard. I have been formulating my beliefs for more than half of your lifetime.
Some of you are just to lazy to read the bible and take one hour out of their week to pray.
Wow! I can’t believe that you actually typed that and posted it. I’m am shocked! I can assure you that I have read the bible (like Edwin) 3 times cover to cover and focused on a few sections more intensly. I pray every night. You may not consider it praying because I pray to no diety. I merely tell my girlfriend, my family, my friends, and the people that deserver it, that I love them, and I wish them well. Then I finish by telling my girlfriend that I love her (again). That way, if I die in my sleep, I know that my last words will be “I love you.” Being Atheist is not about being lazy. You can still believe in god but not be an active member. My friend is a Christian, but he doesn’t go to church every weekend and he doesn’t pray every day, but he still believes that god exists. Atheism is the total lack of belief in anything divine or supernatural. Atheism is not something that people just wake up to one day.
Some of you are afraid of the truth.
What truth? I would love for my life to not be in my hands. I would love to be on some predestined route in life where I didn’t really have to worry or stress about my life, my money troubles, my family, or my friends. I would love to find comfort in the fact that when I died I am going to spend eternity seated at the right hand of the lord. If thats the truth of which you speak, then thats da**mn scary! I wouldn’t want that now would I? Oh, I better become an Atheist because I’m too afraid of being comfortable and content with my life!
Seriously… do you even think before you type these things out? Or did you just hit random keys and see what nonsense you come up with? As I said before, there is nothing about Atheism that is comforting or easy. The life of an Atheist is a hard and difficult one because you have to make your own choices. You realize that you control your own life, so you have to plan ahead and look to the future. You know that when you die, you are going to rot in the ground, which means that you have to live your life and enjoy every minute of it because this is the only chance you get. There is no round two, the bell rings once, and then we are lowered into the ground. I’m not afraid of the truth. It just took me a long time to find the truth.
Some of you are to proud to submit yourself to a greater being.
Once again, I just going to say “wow!” Something like this isn’t about pride. For me Atheism is the truth. I don’t feel that religion can answer these questions because the answer is always the same: “It is god’s will” That just wasn’t good enough for me. I’m a naturally inquisitive person so I was always asking questions. When I was younger (and still professing Catholic faith) I felt driven to learn more about the bible, the stories it contained, my religion, and the world around me. In my quest to learn more I talked frequently with the priest of my church. We had long discussions about Catholicism, mostly me asking questions. After a while though, many of his answers got to be the repetitive. This is what planted the seeds of doubt.
For one thing, Christians outnumber all other religious peoples as well as non-religious, with Catholics the most numerous Christians. Jesus’ have only survived for 2000 years and there are thousands who have died just to keep them alive. I do not think people would die for something they did not believe was true.
I will start the response to this paragraph with this quote.
No amount of belief makes something a fact. - James Randi
The entire western world thought that the world was flat! That didn’t make it true. You are defining your truth by what you believe, but your belief doesn’t make it true to the world, it only makes it true to you. The only truth your statement proves is your own ignorance.
As for science never answering the questions: Only time will tell, and when we die, we will know for sure the real truth of the world.
Ok, I’m done for now. To tell you the truth, this is only about half of what I was intending to write, but after reading, re-reading, and re-reading your post, your ignorance, arrogance, and insulting attitude has begun to bore me. I would appreciate it if you apologized and came back with some meaningful posts.
That way, if I die in my sleep, I know that my last words will be “I love you.”
See now that is more inspired than anything in the bible.
Two points that Jubba didn’t cover quite as well as the rest. (at least in my eyes)
The stats of Christians being more prosperous than non-Christians is false.
A) I’d measure the Christians against the Budhists any time.
B) Ask a Lutheran if a Jahova is a true Chrisitan. Ask a Baptist. Ask a Roman Catholic. You all love to say that you’re one big happy family when the stats are being shown off, but the fact is no matter what Christian faction you follow more than two thirds of your fellow Christians are sinners who are bound for hell and brimstone.
So I ask this. How many “good” Christians are there compared to “good” budhists. That is, people who follow their faith as it was “intended”?
I doubt that you can answer these questions of course because you live in a little box, as Max would say, devoid of any learning beyond what a 2000 year old book tells you.
Second point: If you bothered to study science my dear Preacher, you would know that it does not claim anything at all. Humans claim things, and use science as a guide for determining if there are proofs to support those claims. Science is not a bible, it’s not a constitution, it does not say that something in inaliable, or that something “works in mysterious ways” as an answer. It says look at something with your eyes, experiment on something with your mind, and if your experiments prove to be valid, then something is truth.
You say that science doesn’t have the answers and you’re quite correct because it isn’t the purpose of science to have answers. That’s up to scientists and the laymen of science to determine based upon the experiments. As I said, science is a guide by which people perform experiments, not some sort of holy grail of knowledge.
Only fools claim absolute knowledge over the unknowable, and people who claim absolute knowledge over the unknowable because “their God says so”, are not just fools, but dangerous fools.
(There, that’s much nicer than what I wrote the first time. Thank you Jubba for fielding this one for me. I’m quiting smoking cigs and I probebly shouldn’t be reading threads like this one. Pray for me to have strength friend Jubba. I’m gonna need it.)
good luck with the quitting! :thumb:
I also meant to provide statistics about the number of Christian vs. Non-Christian but failed to do so due to my boredom. 
Nali:
Max, again, how old are you? You’re in high school. You do not have the scientific and theistic background to go around saying you’d read the bible for “humor and giggles”. Most of the brightest men in human history have been religious men, and yet you think you are intelligent enough that you know all the answers and can insult other’s beliefs without any backing.
Again, I’m not trying to start a war here or try to insult you. I’m sorry if people gets offended by my opinion, but they’re mine and thats what I think no matter how far I know as of it.
Sorry Nali.
Upuaut:
Let me just say mater of factly that you have insulted myself and probebly others with your post. I find it to be one of the most poorly constructed, and utterly meaningless posts I’ve seen on the subject of Christanity and it has no place or bearing in this forum. If you continue to use your Religion to insult other’s beliefs I will be forced to eject you from this forum. Consider yourself warned. If you can’t construct rational sentences then you should not post here in “Ordered”. We are all busy and have no time to read your ignorance.
Easy there killer.
But I do agree with you though.
:thumb:
=)
Upuaut:
I doubt that you can answer these questions of course because you live in a little box, as Max would say, devoid of any learning beyond what a 2000 year old book tells you.
Exactly, people need to step out of the box, re-examine whats inside the box, and if they really do decide that they’d go back into the box, thats their choice. But stepping out of the box is the hard part.
Yay, you’re quitting, good for you, we’ll have hope for you.
:thumb:
=)
The thing that always gets me is that in this age of science, we’re brought up to require proof, and to question. Any “scientific” discoveries or breakthoughs have to undergo rigorous testing before they are accepted as fact.
Why do we not do this with religion?
Why isn’t religion subjected to the same processes? And why, if we question a religion (any religion) is this a ‘bad thing’? What keeps this subject apart from anything else?
Kit, what separates religion from science is hard evidence. Science is the search for proof, evidence that can be seen, and help prove phenomena. Religion is solely based on a person’s faith, blindly walking the path without knowing if you have ground to stand on. Questioning certain religions isn’t such a bad thing; the problem people have with it is that searching for evidence is shifting religion more towards science.
Ok, I won’t speak like that again. But not one of my statements was geared towards all athiests, I said some, because some athiests are like that. Some of you said you tried to read the bible or you didn’t get it, to me it seems like some of you didn’t try so hard. There’s plenty of ways to understand it, and you can always get help with it. They are sold at churches if you really want one. Its also online >>http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/index.htm<<. Max it doesn’t seem that you’ve spent a whole lot of time studying Christianity before you decided that it is untrue. The Old Testament is about the preparation for God the Father to send his son to Earth. In the New Testament, the preparation is complete, he is on Earth, and he works his mission.
Many of you are also arrogant at times when you say that the Bible is fiction. If you understood that the books of the bible were written at different times, at that they still connect, you would probably think again.
I’m not suprised at all that some of you read the bible cover to cover. I know that the Devil has seen Jesus and can quote the Bible better than me. I’m not comparing anyone to the Devil, but you are not really understanding much if you just read it.
To clarify the statistics, this is what I copied from Microsoft Encarta 2002:
“Most religions are practiced in fairly specific world regions. The spread of religions occurred mainly due to human migration and the development of telecommunications. This chart shows the number of followers of each of the world religions in thousands. Over one-third of the world’s population adheres to a form of Christianity. Latin America has the largest number of Christians, most of whom are Roman Catholics. Islam is practiced by nearly one-fifth of the world’s population, most of whom live in parts of Asia, particularly the Middle East. Judaism, though a major world religion, has fewer followers than Hinduism, Buddhism, and various other religions practiced primarily in Asia. Atheists and those who consider themselves nonreligious make up more than one-fifth of the world’s population.”
Microsoft® Encarta® Encyclopedia 2002. © 1993-2001 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.
I’m not saying that Jubba’s prayer isn’t good, but I don’t see the specialty of it in saying that it is more inspired than anything in the Bible. Jubba tells his family, friends, and girlfriend that he loves them all. These are all people he loves and people that probably love him. Jesus says to not only love those who love you, but also to love your own enemies. Jubba is still doing a good thing, but I think what Jesus says is much more difficult.
And also, I find it almost impossible for the nonexistence supernatural being. How can you explain creation and miracles? These are only the works of God, and provide proof that a higher power exists. How can you also explain why people would die to keep Jesus’ teachings alive? If Christianity is all false, then it would be ridiculous for thousands of people to die for a lie. Jesus was not foolish enough to only give us teachings for us to believe in him. He performed miracles not just 2000 years ago, but they still occur today and you can see them! I left a link to information about the miracle concerning Our Lady of Guadaloupe (http://www.catholic.org/about/guadalupe.shtml). If you didn’t check it out before, then I would suggest that you do sometime. If you still don’t change your mind, or you don’t like me, then read this from Encarta…
"Under the influence of Greek philosophy, Christian writers came to accept the idea that miracles possess evidential value, that is, they provide evidence that God is at work in the world.
More recently, as a result of the historicocritical method (see Biblical Scholarship), the Gospel miracles are widely regarded as having been written more to inculcate religious truths than to record historical events. Thus, the significance of the miracle lies in its meaning rather than in the event itself. From this point of view, the primary aim of a miracle story is to show that God directs and intervenes in human history."
Microsoft® Encarta® Encyclopedia 2002. © 1993-2001 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.
Miracles have much purpose and there are numerous stories of them from the past and the present. Who can explain an image of the Virgin Mary would remain in perfect condition after hundreds of years, after being burned and such. Or why people have told stories of being in a coma and seeing Jesus. And more recently why someone would survive a coma for 19 Years?! (http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/07/11/1057783356390.html). Things like this go beyond the rules of human beings, and provide proof for the existence of the supernatural.
Also, Jubba, your post contradicts itself.
“Atheism is the total lack of belief in anything divine or supernatural.” - Jubba
But then you also said
“Being Atheist is not about being lazy. You can still believe in god but not be an active member.” - Jubba
It doesn’t make sense that you can still believe a god but have a total lack of belief in anything supernatural.
You read my post wrong. The second statement is read like this:
Being Atheist is not about being lazy.
next idea You can still believe in god but not be an active member. My friend is a Christian, but he doesn’t go to church every weekend and he doesn’t pray every day, but he still believes that god exists.
They are two separate statements. Atheists do not believe in god, I was also stating that a theist can believe in god, but not be a highly active member.
my post does not and I make sure they do not contradict themselves.
As for the guadalupe “miracle” there are many priests and religious figures that even doubt the existence of Juan Diego. If they are unsure… then why should you so blindly follow? Miracles can be explained. Visions are caused by many things, heat exhaustion, fatigue, exposure, drugs, etc etc etc…
I have no problem with people following a religion. Many of my friends are very devout in their own separate religions in their own separate ways. The only thing that I ask of them is to not be a sheep. Don’t just follow something because someone says so. Really research it and find out for yourself.
I’ll end up with this quote:
Should one believe things merely because one wants them to be true?
I read about that guy that survived for 19 years. The only reason he survived was because they didn’t pull the plug. They just let him sleep.
A coma is a sleep-like state. Some people have deep comas, some have not-so deep comas. That guys coma was a not so deep one. He slipped in and out of consiousness for 19 years. They talked to him, and he responded with head nods and gestures. His brain was still active. While you are in a coma your brain is still active, so some patients have dreams. Dreams can consist of anything. I have had dreams about Santa Clause and the Easter bunny… that doesnt’ mean that they exist and they are trying to tell me to believe… does it?
True, coma has to do with brain response. Again, that doesn’t matter with religion and beliefs, but more rather physical being and chemical response.
I’ve heard many possible reasons for dreams, but no one can really prove it. Just like daejavu.
=)
Its not like these are the only miracles that were ever performed. There are plenty of miracles besides seeing Jesus or comas and such. Some examples are stigmatas (http://www.catholic.org/saints/stigmata.shtml), crying statues, eucharistic miracles (http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/a3.html), and amazing healings. As you said you were active once in the Catholc church Jubba, I’m sure you’ve heard of plenty more. If you don’t believe in any of this, then you can always make up an excuse like maybe the stigmatas did it to themselves? Or people created the statues so that they could cry with the push of a button? Maybe some people could of lied, but there is a record of over 60 people with stigmatas, and plenty of people have told accounts of crying statues (and I’ve honestly seen one myself). I do not think 60 people would all stab themselves or created mechanisms to make statues cry just to keep Christianity alive. These happenings are not the works of man.
people do amazing things for a lot less reason than to promote Christianity. That is just a side effect. Usually the “miracle” can not be duplicated, or has been debunked by science (notice how it happens is 3rd world, non-industrialized/free press-type countries? Or is God just not doing miracles in the first world anymore?
I someone would create a new church, just because he wants to marry another woman, so he can have a male heir, why wouldn’t someone create a statue with props, or put glass shards in their daughter’s eyes, so she bled from the eyes…
to say those are miracles by lack of scientific evidence is a cop-out. A lack of evidence never proves anything but a lack of info.
Rev
The crying statue I saw was in the US and I’ve heard of others in the US as well. Healing stories have come from every sort of people.
Like I said, some of these miracles could have been lies, but how can you say that every single one was. The true miracles are not amazing things done by people but by God.
*Originally posted by saintdorothea *
**The crying statue I saw was in the US and I’ve heard of others in the US as well. Healing stories have come from every sort of people.
Like I said, some of these miracles could have been lies, but how can you say that every single one was. The true miracles are not amazing things done by people but by God. **
only by those who believe in God. Show me where these miracles have been allowed to be researched in full, by Scientists… and that these Scientists have said “it must be supernatural, because we can’t find a scientific reason.”
If the crying statue is not a fake, then show the scientific proof… even the famed “Shroud of Turin” was shown to be a 7th century fake, but the Catholic Church still claims it to be “genuine relic.”
Faith is fine, but it does not lend “proof” to anything. Just because a large group of people believe something does not make it fact.
I don’t know of a single relic or icon that has been put to forensic science, and held up it’s legend.
Rev
I don’t know of a single relic or icon that has been put to forensic science, and held up it’s legend.
Ditto.
And Saintdorothy, thank you for toning it down a bit. I understand your passion for your faith. It just isn’t going to do any good to act superior to others when those others are in control of who does and doesn’t post in the forum. I still think you’re being arogant as hell, but you are trying and I can see that. Thank you for choosing to discuss your religion with my fellow Kirupians rather than shoving it down their throarts.
If miracles will not convince you, then think about creation. Now obviously something does not come from nothing. According to theory, man evolved from other creatures that lived on earth. Earth was created by dust and elements in space. These elements came from the explosion from the Big Bang. The elements in the core of the Big Bang, well where did they come from. These theories can only go so far until one asks, where did it start? Even if something like the Big Bang theory is true, there is the question of who made the Big Bang. Things don’t happen on their own and things don’t just appear without some action. Maybe its hard for to see that God makes miracles happen, but it should be easier to notice how that something created this world from nothing; a supernatural being.
If anyone starts telling me that they don’t care or ask why do we have to explain everything like creation, then I’m assuming your too afraid to admit you may be wrong and that a higher power exists.
