Atheism

talk
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Current scientific theory does not claim that the Universe came from nothing. It is however beyond my capabilities to teach a laymen quantum physics when I really don’t even understand the full aspect of it.

Let me ask you this Dorothea, If I gave you a complex mathematical puzzle to sovle which was second year trig stuff, would you be able to solve it? Does it mean that it is false because you don’t have the technical knowhow to understand how it works? Probebly not. It could be, but you can’t make that call without being educated in the field. I would suggest, if you want to understand how scientists seem to be saying that something comes from nothing, then you’ll need to study physics to do so. We are not here to prove or disprove the big bang because plain and simple, none of us can, just as you can’t prove God’s existance. There is no experiment which you can use to test the validity of the big bang, there is only theory which has not yet been disproven.

You can’t argue against science until you have a basic understanding of what science is and what it is not. You believe that science “says” things even though I keep telling you that “science” does not state anything. "Science is a road map for experimentation and proofing of theory, it is not a bible.

If you want to say that science “says” this or that, you’re going to have to bring up the scientist who said such, and a link to at least some of his work so that I can find disputes for it.

The other thing to remember is that just because a person is an atheist, doesn’t mean that they believe in the big bang. There are many theories going around right now about the origin of the Universe.

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*Originally posted by saintdorothea *
**If anyone starts telling me that they don’t care or ask why do we have to explain everything like creation, then I’m assuming your too afraid to admit you may be wrong and that a higher power exists. **

AHAHAHA there is the ignorance again…Its just not important to me. I really don’t care where we came from because knowing isn’t going to change my life. When science figures out a definate theory, the theists are just going to dispute it anyway. Science could come up with an air-tight theory about the creation of the universe with all the facts, and evidence to back it up… Do you think one single Christian is going to say, “Well I guess I was wrong…”

NO! They are just going to dispute and argue and continue to believe in their faith…

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True, where as the opposite would happen as well, but in much lower numbers. Scientists are in general very open to any possibility, as long as there is proof of it. If we were to come up with a scientific experiment which proved God’s existance, you would have a lot more people going to Church.

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quote:

Originally posted by Jubba
Its just not important to me. I really don’t care where we came from because knowing isn’t going to change my life.

If you knew that you came from God, then that would change your life and everything you believe in.

In many miracle healing stories, doctors have looked upon their patients and found no answer to why their disease may have been healed. How would a scientist actually experiment on this? Or how would they prove that a person had recieved stigmata’s? They would probably say the person is crazy and they stabbed themselves.

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Many of your healing stories happen (as Rev said [i think]) in Third World Countries where the levels of faith are higher and the levels of technology are lower. Just because a man practicing Medicine in Mexico can not find a cuase, does not mean that there is no explanation for it.

Some diseases go into resession on their own. My sister has cancer. When she went into the doctors the tumor had gone away and they couldn’t explain it because thats just the nature of the disease. That does not mean that we began to profess faith in some god because it went away. There is always a logical explanation. You just have to be willing to look for it.

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*Originally posted by saintdorothea *
**quote:

Originally posted by Jubba
Its just not important to me. I really don’t care where we came from because knowing isn’t going to change my life.

If you knew that you came from God, then that would change your life and everything you believe in.

In many miracle healing stories, doctors have looked upon their patients and found no answer to why their disease may have been healed. How would a scientist actually experiment on this? Or how would they prove that a person had recieved stigmata’s? They would probably say the person is crazy and they stabbed themselves. **

If you believe that Jon Edwards can speak to your dead relatives, and does so on TV, that would change your life as well… Does that mean that Jon Edwards is Devine? not hardly…

If you knew that you came from Outer Space, then that would change your life, and everything you believe in…

your logic is faulty.

Rev

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Originally posted by reverendflash
**your logic is faulty. **

It is, but my argument doesn’t have to be perfect. I made my point, if Jubba knew where he came from, and not just believed but he absolutely knew, then it would change his life.

And again about miracles, because none of you seemed to say anything about stigmatas.

Originally posted by reverendflash
**I don’t know of a single relic or icon that has been put to forensic science, and held up it’s legend. **

The image of Our Lady of Guadaloupe was tested on and there was no explanation as to why that remained unharmed. And again, although there are no stigmatics are currently alive, if there was one and he/she was tested on, a scientist who would get the chance to experiment on it would simply make an assumption such as the person was mentally ill and they stabbed themselves. If a scientist was told of a eucharistic miracle similar to the one that happened in Bolsena, Italy (Eucharistic Miracle of Bolsena-Orvieto, Italy) he could probably just say that the people were all experiencing some sort of similar illness that made them see an illusion.

You all asked for proof. There is no true proof. There is almost no way to test for proof. Even when there is experiments done, many scientists create theories excluding the existence of a divine power. What I have been trying to show you is that you must use your judgement and common sense to realize what is the truth. The statistics show a lot but there have also been thousands of miracles to show the God exists. Do you think that every vision of a heavenly being was a halluncination? That every stigmata was a fake one? That every crying statue was made by men? That when people are somehow healed when informed that they will not survive and still do, it is the nature of the disease? How can I give you concrete proof? In reality there is no concrete proof for anything. I could give an excuse for any fact even if it sounded ridiculous, and then say that there is no proof. Science uses numerous experiments to prove or find something. There have also been numerous miracles to prove the extistence of God. While those miracles could alllies, some of those experiements could all be errors. However both of these events are unlikely. It is unlikely for scientists to make an error in an experiment numerous times but also unlikely for people to have gone through and reported miracles numerous times that were all false.

Originally posted by Jubba
**Many of your healing stories happen (as Rev said [i think]) in Third World Countries where the levels of faith are higher and the levels of technology are lower. **

If your implying that maybe the uneducated peoples in Third World Countries have no explanation for their healing other than god, then maybe your right. But United States, with its great technology, is still the home of many Christians.

Originally posted by upuaut
**If we were to come up with a scientific experiment which proved God’s existance, you would have a lot more people going to Church. **

Again there is no way to just prove something, whether it be religion or any other fact. Science shows that the world is round, well I could choose not to believe that and say that magic makes people go to the opposite side of the world when they go to the edge. And that whenever people look at the Earth from space, and it appears round, they are seeing an illusion because the darkness in space makes everything look weird. For anyone to actually believe something like this would be ridiculous. Yet there is no way to prove something, you believe what you want to believe. But humans do use wise judgement to determine what they believe is true. After so much evidence of the Earth having a round shape, I would be using wise judgement to think that it is round. After so many miracles happening, I would be using wise judgement to think that they did occur.

Again you can believe what you want to believe. No one can prove to you that God exists. And if I wanted to believe that the Earth is flat, then I could, and no one could prove it to me otherwise. I choose what I want to believe, but I choose what is in my best judgement. I want you to think that maybe believing in the nonexistence of God is not in your best judgement.

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and I want you to think that believing in a grey haired old man sitting on a cloud arbitrarily saying “You get a new car… and You get hit by a bus,” is a complete waste of time and resources. If the religeous of this world would actually spend the money and time they use on worship, for the welfare of the world (such as feeding the 3rd world which just happens to be the most consistantly religeous), the world would be a much better place since they could eat dinner tonite…

I still fail to see how anyone can defend a book that was rewritten in the 15th century by a man who beheaded his wife because she didn’t give him a male heir in the specified time…

I also fail to see how anyone can follow a religeon that hordes millions of dollars in art and money, while that same religeon watches most of it’s congregation go hungry…

Rev

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Well to begin with, I believe in a God in what you are refering to. He does not make my decisions every second of my life and but I know he can. He can have great influence on them. But even then I don’t have to follow him.

I don’t always understand how Catholics have such a reputation for being wealthy and hungry for money. But even so, there are millions of problems and they cannot feed every single person and fix every single problem. Although we would love to feed the world food, we are more concerned feeding your soul with knowledge and the way to live according to God’s Will. I agree that Catholics have made mistakes, a lot of mistakes, and they still do. I also disagree sometimes with the decisions they make and what they are using their money for. But they are not perfect. We believe that God is perfect and we do try to be like him, but we really never can be.

Remember that Catholics also try to bring peace into world to prevent evil and horrible events, such as war. If with the peace we could prevent war, then less people would be suffering and hungry. And if more people adopted the virtues and values of the Catholic church, I think the world would be more peacful because we are taught to love our enemies and care for others before ourselves. Also, by learning from the sacrifice of Jesus, Catholics learn how to sacrifice for others who are hungry and suffering. However, Catholics are not perfect and even if we all adopted the Catholic values, we would still make mistakes. We are human, imperfect beings. Although Jesus came here on Earth to teach us how to practice our religion, he is not on Earth any more. We humans are left to maintain the religion, and as good as some men and women may be, they are all imperfect and will continue to make mistakes. Our religion is not perfect and that is obvious. Some of our leaders are corrupt and we’ve had some bad history. I know allCatholics do not have this mindset, but I try my hardest to adopt the virtues in the bible. Though from my previous posts, you can see that I make mistakes and I can get pretty arogant and annoying.

As for the whole bible issue, there are different versions. Each form of Christianity has slight modifications to its Bible, some has less books than others, others more. The issue your talking about is the King James version of the bible. I own a copy, but I don’t use it because it is for non-Catholics. That whole issue seems to confuse people, but if you want to read the facts, check them out at http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02141a.htm. It was actually the first English translated version. The Catholics didn’t accept it and made thier own. Well anyway, check out that page.

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I look forward to the day when we educate your kind out of existance Dorothea.

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*Originally posted by upuaut *
**I look forward to the day when we educate your kind out of existance Dorothea. **

:!:

Well I didn’t expect this. I knew I was being a jerk before and I’m sorry. But I did try not to be so arrogant on this last post. Am I still sounding arrogant or do you just not like me =) ?

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Dorothea:

Take a good look at the finances of the Catholic church. For hundreds of years, it wasn’t the spirituality that made someone a Bishop, it was influence and money.

Take a good look at how much art the Vatican holds, and doesn’t let anyone except a chosen few, to even view it. Just think about the land holdings that the Catholic church owns…

The Catholic church is the <i>only</i> church that has a City, with it’s own laws, under it’s control, and without dispute in a country which doesn’t have a religeous based Government. Yet in that same country (with all of that land and art and gold) millions of their congregation go hungry each and every day…

I look forward to speaking with you in 10 years. I seriously doubt your convictions will be the same after you’ve had a chance to be educated. You have yourself admitted you haven’t met many other people with other beliefs, so how can you say that <b>your</b> belief is right?

and finally, why did you come to a forum that is full of programmers and techy people (who are in general science oriented) to profess your beliefs?

It’s people like you who don’t take the time to learn the entire picture before you start regurgitating stories from people who have learned to regurgitate stories from someone else.

If you want to change someone’s mind, do so with facts, not circular reasoning.

BTW - I hope the grey haired old man on your cloud doesn’t point to the wrong person… infallable… pffffft!

has anything in this world, <u>EVER</u> been proven to be infallable? anything?

And as far as the Bible is concerned, who translated your version? How was is translated? Did they (humans) get the gist of the writers? Did they convey the emotion of that original text? You are assuming they did, simply because you are told that they did. Even tho… it was translated centuries ago, when the language was different than today.

Then it was translated by your Priest’s teachers, then by your priest (which is why you get different versions, depending on where you hear the sermon)…

Rev

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Saintdorothea:

*Originally posted by saintdorothea *
He does not make my decisions every second of my life and but I know he can. He can have great influence on them. But even then I don’t have to follow him.

Wrong. If there is really a ‘God,’ he can control you and make all your decision for you. As a supreme being, he is supposedly able to control anyone. Afterall, didn’t he ‘create’ you?

*Originally posted by saintdorothea *We believe that God is perfect and we do try to be like him, but we really never can be.

I don’t think ‘God,’ or atleast your ‘God’ is perfect. If so, why diseases? Why hunger and famine?

Just on a side note: You’re wayyy too far into this thing you call religion. Was that copy & paste or did you actually come up with all that stuff.

Upuaut:

and finally, why did you come to a forum that is full of programmers and techy people (who are in general science oriented) to profess your beliefs?

Good question. :sure:

=)

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I hoped to maybe persuade your mind, but now I see how you are trying to do that to me. I can say that in ten years you will hate me more for what I will become. If you understood how happy it makes me as a Catholic, to pray and attend mass, then you would see that I will never lose this faith. Whether the church is sticky with their money, I do not really know. If so then they are being greedy and doing something wrong, just like we always do. No one is perfect.

I can say that I enjoyed arguing with all of you because I’ve learned more about people. I argued with you because your different than me.

God is no grayed haired old man, he is not a part of this world on earth, he is infallable.

I also do not understand why you are still arguing about the bible issue. I left a link to a very informative page (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02141a.htm.) and so far I’m one of the only ones who is actually linking to pages with reliable information.

Maybe this doesn’t have to do with the subject, but my father is a brilliant man. He is smarter than I ever will be and he has been a Catholic his whole life. I can assure that he would not be a Catholic for 50 years without questioning the faith and realizing that it is the truth and despite the Church’s mistakes, it is what to follow. My father is a man I trust, whether it be for religion or anything, and I know we are both going in the right direction.

How many reasons must I give? The Church is my home, it has been a part of my family and my people for thousands of years. I am a Chaldean-American. I don’t want to go into details into what a Chaldean is, but it is basically Catholics from the Middle-East. Faith in the Catholic church is what has kept us alive for thousands of years. The Chaldeans have been under submissive control since the time of Christ. They have been persecuted and tortured, yet their faith remained alive. Not only should I remain attached to the Catholic Church because of the reasons I gave earlier, but because it has been in my family for generations. Who am I to suddenly change everything? If Catholicism was not the right way, someone would have realized that by now. I’d laugh if you say it is me, I’m only 16 years old. I’m going where I know is the right path.

*Originally posted by Maxtr0sity *
**Saintdorothea:

Wrong. If there is really a ‘God,’ he can control you and make all your decision for you. As a supreme being, he is supposedly able to control anyone. Afterall, didn’t he ‘create’ you?

I don’t think ‘God,’ or atleast your ‘God’ is perfect. If so, why diseases? Why hunger and famine?

Just on a side note: You’re wayyy too far into this thing you call religion. Was that copy & paste or did you actually come up with all that stuff.

Upuaut:

Good question. :sure:

=) **

I said that God does not make my decisions, but I know he can if he wants to. I was born with and I will always have a free will.

I really think that you should learn more about what Christianity teaches. Hunger and famine are problems with the world. God and Heaven are perfect and the world is not. You should realize that suffering is neccessary. If you or others did not suffer, whether it be hunger or anything else, at some point in your life, how would you ever appreciate the times in which you are happy and satisfied.

I copied nothing, what I write is from me. If I was going to copy something someone else wrote you could probably tell because most people don’t write with such arrogance as I do. I don’t always do it purposely, but I guess its a problem I have.

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If Catholicism was not the right way, someone would have realized that by now. I’d laugh if you say it is me, I’m only 16 years old. I’m going where I know is the right path.

so all of the religeons who have been following a different theory for thousands of years aren’t right, even though their intelligent father says they are?

most things you post are hypocratic by nature.

The Bible was translated by a human. The Mormons believe that an angel told Joseph Smith where to dig in the forrest, to find the gold plates written in a language that only he could read (with the help of God), and so therefore we know the Book of Mormon is true.

They are just as ademate about their beliefs as you. Now you can’t both be right, let alone all of the other religeons on the planet.

These people all have intelligent, well adjusted men in their congregations who have daughters, who are just as convinced that their father wouldn’t back a losing horse, as you are.

Don’t you see where your <b>blind faith</b> in man has clouded your judgement on the issue of theology?

Being a missionary on a techy web forum is kinda <b>stooooopid</b>, don’t you think? Prob be a lot easier, and get nicer responses from the natives on New Guinea…

I’m very glad you respect your father so much. So do the people in the Middle East who strap a bomb to their chest and go on suicide missions…

<b>Blind Faith is Blind Faith. No matter in what the Faith is placed, it is still Blind</b>

and BTW - I don’t hate. anyone, ever. Way too much energy expelled for no benefit to anyone.

How anyone @ 16 years old, who is so ignorant on what else goes on in the world, can say what they will think in 10 years is astounding. You haven’t even figured out who you are yet, and how you fit into this world, let alone any of the other basic things you should learn soon…

Rev

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How anyone @ 16 years old, who is so ignorant on what else goes on in the world, can say what they will think in 10 years is astounding. You haven’t even figured out who you are yet, and how you fit into this world, let alone any of the other basic things you should learn soon…

You do not know my character to say how I fit into the world. What is so astounding about saying what I think? At what point did you see me questioning who I am? I’ve found my faith, I know what I can do in the future that will best help me and others. You are being arrogant to think you know all of this about me and assuming that I am an ignorant teenager.

My arguments were not geared towards other faiths, and right now I’m not willing to get into that because I started speaking about the existence of God, which it seems I’m not finished with.

And tell me then, what basic things I should learn soon?

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Saintdorothea:
I’m tired of your links. Links prove nothing, they may be a source for information, but they are NOT always reliable. Some Joe Shmo could’ve written it.

Faith in the Catholic church is what has kept us alive for thousands of years.

So if you’re not Catholic, you wouldn’t be here?

Who am I to suddenly change everything?

Why not? Whats stopping you? You obviously has grown a bit too attached to this deal. Your family shouldn’t decide your decisions such as what to believe in. Why not change everything? Everyone has their own opinion, yours just might be different.

I was born with and I will always have a free will.

You’re contradicting yourself with the quote above.

Rev:

Don’t you see where your blind faith in man has clouded your judgement on the issue of theology?

You read my mind. :love:

Being a missionary on a techy web forum is kinda stooooopid, don’t you think? Prob be a lot easier, and get nicer responses from the natives on New Guinea…

Hehe, true, we’re programmers here, we base on science and reasoning, so, you’re just a misfit, but feel free to start exploring flash. :thumb:

=)

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*Originally posted by saintdorothea *
**And tell me then, what basic things I should learn soon? **

When you have gone through the school of life, please return and post your ideals.

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Lol, wouldn’t that mean to come back after he’s dead? :stuck_out_tongue:

=)

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*Originally posted by saintdorothea *
**I hoped to maybe persuade your mind, but now I see how you are trying to do that to me. I can say that in ten years you will hate me more for what I will become. If you understood how happy it makes me as a Catholic, to pray and attend mass, then you would see that I will never lose this faith. Whether the church is sticky with their money, I do not really know. If so then they are being greedy and doing something wrong, just like we always do. No one is perfect.
**

I just dont get people like you. I know this is going to sound rude, but it is not my intent. I have been following this thread for days and I just cant sit silent anymore.

Dorothea, who do you think you are? This is a community of programmers, graphic artists, and just "out there people :thumb:
Not die hard religious fanatics. This is a great community and there are some great discussions that go on here. I have met some great people that I truly enjoy speaking with daily.

If you want to recruit, why not go to an airport and throw out some flyers or something. How dare you try to make others believe what you do. You are making a good thing sound like a cult.

Have some respect and understand that others feel differently.