Cult Science and Politics

I want to quote Richard Feynman here. He’s one of my heroes. He won the Nobel Prize in Physics, and he was the one who discovered why the Challenger exploded. However, to most people, he’s know for his book “Are you Joking Mr Feynman” in which he recounts his adventures. This is an exerpt from that book, particularly from a commencement speech he gave in Caltech.

… I call these things cult science, because they follow all the apparent precepts and forms of scientific investigation. … But there is one feature I notice that is generally missing in cult science. … It’s a kind of scientific integrity, a principle of scientific thought that corresponds to a kind of utter honesty – a kind of leaning over backwards. For example, if you’re doing an experiment, you should report everything that you think might make it invalid – not only what you think is right about it. … If you make a theory, for example, and advertise it, or put it out, then you must also put down all the facts that disagree with it, as well as those that agree with it. …the idea is to try to give all of the information to help others to judge the value of your contribution; not just the information that leads to judgment in one particular direction or another.

I think this can be applied to politics discussion, especially here in the ordered thread. I don’t post here often, because I see a lot of arguments that are heavily one sided. I hear people saying that Michael Moore is a god, or that America should just kick everyone’s butt. But I sincerely hope that when making your arguments, you consider the opposing view, and make sure to point out the holes in what you say. Don’t go for the one sided view. You owe it to yourself and to the person you’re debating with to consider the whole issue before you say anything.

It’s this idea the reason why I hate Michael Moore so much. He immediately dismisses others opinions as stupid. Heck the title of his book is called “Stupid white men.” There are many smart people in the opposing camp, and you always have to consider WHY, if they’re so smart, they think that way.

Every single one of us is ignorant on ANY issue we talk about here. We don’t hold a degree in politics, and there’s no one here that makes politics his/her life. But we can do our best to see the whole picture by learning as much as possible. This includes reading books by authors with opposing views.

The purpose of a debate shouldn’t be to beat the other person. Rather, it should be to arrive at the truth. And you can’t do that if you don’t consider the other persons point of view. And I can’t do that, if you don’t know what you’re talking about. I hope you see my point.

I totaly agree! I try to present both sides a bit, but sometimes, when I am arguing for one side, I have to argue for that side. This applied well when you are presenting a topic…

But um… Lavaboy, … Wasn’t it you in one topic saying something like “Kirupa is knows more so he is going to beat you in any argumen?”
And you just said its not to win? - no worries, no one is perfect.

Well, I said that because the other person was trying to win the argument… Kirupa had some good points that the other person didn’t even consider, which led to my statement.

But yeah, I see your point. I know I talk crap sometimes. I try to keep it to a minimum.

I’m kinda sad that only one person responded to this thread. I think this is HUGELY important.

True that, true that…maybe you can change the thread name to something else… like Argument Ethics… or somehting

Hey lava,
I agree with your post to a large degree. If only anything political/societal had simple, quantifiable solutions. You make a good point though - more than one side of an issue should be considered at all times =)

Cheers!
Kirupa :bandit:

what did you disagree with?

me, nothing…am I supposed to disagree with something lol :slight_smile:

well, you said you agreed with most of it… why not all of it? hehe.

*Originally posted by Phil´s phather *
Son, make your words sweet and phul of comphort today, phor tomorrow you might have to eat those same words…Trust me on this Son…

that is one of the best quotes ever!

I´m gonna use it if you don´t mind phil.

ps: i agree with you in your entire post phil.

I disagree Lava… but commend your desires none the less.

A scientific inquiry should be given with both pros and cons of the arguement. Feynman is quite correct in that… but you are incorrect that this applies to structured debate. A debate is two individuals who choose to argue the pros of each side of an opposing view. The only reason to use cons to your arguement in a debate is to premtively dispose of your opponants arguements. Likewise I would say that, though there is no definitive winner or loser in a debate, it is a competition with the goal in mind of presenting one’s arguements more clearly to the audience than one’s opponant is able to.

However… you are correct that none of us are professional politicians… and in the end… this is “ordered” not “the debate” section. In conversation (which is not debate) it is just as important to present the pros and cons as in any scientific experiment. It lends credence to what you say, and allows people to look for other educated sources for opposing POV’s

For the record… if someone does wish to have an organized debate… one on one, with a judge to keep things sane… I’d be happy to moderate such a competition.

As for rhetoric… if you’re truely spending time complaining about that, (I haven’t been in random in a while) then you might as well stop speaking. All conversation is persuasive to a degree and most things that you post Lava are a direct attempt to persuade the audience of something… as this post is.

However… Phillyboy… it’s not really good form to use his speech in other forums to be insulting here in ordered. Let me ask you Phill…How does Lava having to eat his words about rhetorical conversation, support or detract from a point having to do with the title of the thread? The answer is, it doesn’t, and it therefore just ends up being a malicious statement. IMO

Hey David:

not trying to deffend phil, but he´s right. when lava enters a ‘debate’ thread he usually end up discrediting the hole thread with his rethorical speech - what upsets the ppl involved inthe ‘debate’ - but then he post this thread telling us how to ‘debate’…

well, you´re either in or out. make up your mind lava, and then let us know. your post was perfect anyways…

I mean, Phil’s right though. This post is completely rhetorical - it describes an ideal situation, without facts. I accept that. And I know I don’t always follow my own rule, why? Because I’m not perfect. However, I make the point that we should try our best to understand the whole issue and make an educated statement - an opinion based on facts. And you can pin anything on me, but you can’t say that I don’t try to do this. You’ve all seen my long posts… they have facts, numbers in them.

I’m in DC. I’m not sure if any of you guys knows what it’s like living in DC, but half my day is filled with political discussion, and therefore I’ve learned a little bit about what it takes to persuade someone. And pure rhetoric just doesnt work… no one here takes the IMF protesters seriously, no one here takes anti-war protesters seriously. You ask them intelligent questions, all they respond with is “war is bad.”

And it’s like that for many things. I come into the ordered forum and I see someone’s post and I think: what the hell made you think this way. They simply don’t support their arguments.

You know what I love? I love it when someone says: this is my opinion because such and such facts. And then I go along with my long post and say: well, this is true, but you havent considered such and such thing. Then the person says, well, wait a second, YOU haven’t considered this and this and this. I LOVE THAT. Why? Because it enables me to learn. Personally, the most important thing that I want to get out of a debate is understanding the other person’s point of view. I can’t get that if the person doesn’t provide support for his arguments.

I actually agree with Guig0 more than I agree with Phil. I come in and completely discredit a conversation. It’s true. I see an argument and I see holes everywhere and sometimes I see people talking total crap. It’s not that I disagree with people’s opinions, but I think: “Come on, you can try to convince me a little bit better… support what you’re saying… do you even know what the hell you’re talking about?”

hey lava: you really surprized me. i´m glad to see your attitude, uou take my comments very well, and because of that i respect you even more! =)

feel free to use rethorical arguments from now on… i grant you leave to :wink:

Not sure what any of you are disagreeing with which I said. Everything was accurate as far as I can discern. I said that it “ends up being malicious” Phil. I do NOT think that you were intentionaly trying to be insulting at all. Neither were you off base.

in addition

rhetoric

\Rhet"o*ric, n. [F. rh['e]torique, L. rhetorica, Gr. ??? (sc. ???), fr. ??? rhetorical, oratorical, fr. ??? orator, rhetorician; perhaps akin to E. word; cf. ??? to say.] 1. The art of composition; especially, elegant composition in prose.

  1. Oratory; the art of speaking with propriety, elegance, and force. --Locke.

  2. Hence, artificial eloquence; fine language or declamation without conviction or earnest feeling.

  3. Fig. : The power of persuasion or attraction; that which allures or charms.

can anyone explain to me how rhetoric disrupts a conversation which is designed to persuade, and or in what way Lava is ruining a thread using rhetorical speech?

that could be. I seem to have not gotten what anyone was getting at except lava. But I’m a strange boy… you know it. :slight_smile: