Michael Moore

21

*Originally posted by RussianBeer *
**Now to a modern concept.

Now, there is no foreign tyrant to overthrow, there is only your own country.

So it wont be a war like the Independance War, but a War like the Civil War.

So, vulcan your example does not apply. Sure if a all the non-military gun owners went against the US military they will lose, and lose bad.

It wont be the same.

It will be Rebeling US military VS. Non-Rebeling US military.
Just like in Civil War, there would be some generals and armies that will join the Rebeling side and some wont. **
Exactly, and I think there is less of a chance of the government turning on its people when the people have the power to rebel with force. It is a check and balance thing…this is why I am so passionate about the 2nd amendment. I really think the founders were giving consideration to that.

22

Lets try this, you live in utopia-land where everyone helps each other, there is no unemployment, there is no fighting, everytig is great.

Communist ! Commy ! :slight_smile: j/k
The only way that this is going to happen is if you live under communism. You will never have everyone helping each other in a capitalistc society as by the nature of capitalisim you try to gain at the expense of others. And there will always be unemployment in a capitalistic society as you will never reach an equilibrium were jobs = people.

I like both capitalism and communism, both have factors going for them. Let’s not forget that Russia was nothing more than a bunch of farmers. But once they united under communism where everyone was working for the greater good, they quickly became a superpower. Though admittedly even they still had problems and I wouldn’t like being told what I have to do.

At this point do you wish that the people had weapons to rebel the invasion, or do you just bend over and take what crappy-land does?
Well if the USA came to invade Australia I wouldn’t care. Like being under US dictatorship is going to make a difference.

If Saddam came down here to invade and force us to live under his dictatorship, then that would be a different story. If we didn’t have the US and British to help us, then our piss-ant defense force would have no chance against Saddams (ex) army.

I would say that its stupid for us to bear arms in an attempt to stop him. All that that would achieve is a few deaths on his side, and millions of our innocent civilians killed. So I would say let them walk in.
Once there politicians are here to run the country…. Bring out the terror tactics and kill them. Take it back to Iraq and kill there politicians there.

If you go to war you can kill thousands of solders, and the political leaders who sent the solders there will only send more.

If you use terror tactics and kill innocent civilians from the other side, that will only fuel them to make there political leaders act in revenge and send more solders.

If you kill the political leaders who are sending the solders, then when it’s their lives on the line, they will soon change their tune.

23

That is my point Ave, everyone is a power hungry self serving idot to some degree.

maybe in texas mate :thumb:

end of conversation for me…LOL and i thought id heard it all from you blind !!

24

That is my point Ave, everyone is a power hungry self serving idot to some degree.

I have to kinda agree with this… I don’t know anyone through out history that hasn’t let power go to there heads.

25

*Originally posted by The_Vulcan *
**I have to kinda agree with this… I don’t know anyone through out history that hasn’t let power go to there heads. **
It is the nature of being human. People want to survive, so they will do what it takes to survive over someone else if need be. Anyone here who says they are not selfish in at least some small way I think is either a liar or ignorant.

26

I disagree that it’s the nature of human to be this way. I must otherwise I am not human… since I know that I am human I can assert that I believe this is trained human behavior passed down from generation to generation.

on the other hand I believe strongly in the quote “those who seek power, probebly shouldn’t have it.” (though I can’t remember where that’s from for the life of me.

I’ll admit that I’m selfish, but logic dictates that I fail to heed selfishness… so maybe you are right… maybe it is human nature… but it can be fought against. To say that it is human nature… many people take that to mean that it is the way we are meant to be. I can make strong arguements against being the “way we were meant to be.” :slight_smile:

Vulcan… you siad that you’re Aussie… I had heard that since the illegalisation of legal gun ownership, the rate of accidental shootings has dropped and the rate of criminal shootings has gone up. Can you confirm, deny, or give any details on this? I think it’s important, as we discuss the idea of gun ownership to see other examples where guns have been removed from the hands of the people.

As a side note… and unrelated… I’m interested in the self image of the aussie. I know a couple and you guys are always such happy people. Does the background of your people’s history play any effect upon you with regard to self image? You can PM me this one if it’s too long a side note for this convo.

27

I think we are getting somewhere upuaut! I think that while it is nature that leads us to be selfish, I dont think we have to accept it. I think we agree here right? However, I don’t think there are enough self-less people to govern us all. And, I think even though someone may start out self-less they tend to revert to selfish when given power (orwells power corrupts stuff). Here is why I do not like socialistic and communistic forms of government. I go more for the everyone look out for yourself to avoid this corrupting power in society. However, I see that at least in America we will always have some kind of slight socialistic system intertwined, but that is the reason I think we need to allow the people to remain armed, so that they can keep a natural check and balance system going.

28

Hey bow and arrows were created to kill…ban them too?

29

I still say i didnt insult you or name call.

I merely gave you my opinion of you…which was honest and not played up to have effect i honestly believe you are all those things i wrote as you have PROVED to me repeatedly with your views on MANY issues not just this one.

I have discussed issues in the past with you and conducted myself with perfect manners and it makes no difference at all, so why shouldnt i tell what i think of you.

And to me and others your views and lack of any ability to admit fault or discuss things properly is just as offensive as name calling.

Why are you so scared that someone has a differnt opinion than you?

im not scared for me, i happily live in a place where few guns are seen.
Im scared for the innocent people and lives which will be lost due to people like you having such stubborn and socially messed up views, and for the world our children will inhabit if people like you are the majority.

30

BL:

For the last time.

You have every right in the world to have a different opinion that anyone else on the planet should you want. It’s when you wish to legislate/act on those opinions that it’s wrong.

So stop saying I won’t let you have an opinion. Also, stop varying from the topic every time your ideology falls apart.

31

Every time we end up on oposite ends of a debate rev, it goes down the same path of you saying I am spewing my whatever…

We got off topic because you and ave decided to beat me up for my ideas instead of talking about the topic…I didn’t get us off topic.

32

You were already way off topic by the time my factual comment was input. You, on the other hand, chose to retort with a gradeschool playground level remark.

You would think, that if no one here wants you around in your current argumentative state of mind, you would get the hint and either change, or leave. Unless of course you have run out of place on the web to soap box your conservative views, and not be banned simply because of those views.

I’m tired of you BL. However, I will not allow Ordered to become your little playground because you have chased all intelligent, logical people out with your sideshow tactics.

33

Here was my last post before we got off topic. I was responding to aves point.

Ok, so it is ok that people die in car accidents because you need to drive to the movies or to bars or where ever you go, but guns should be illegal because they are just for protection/sport/hunting but not something ave does everyday?

Here was your post that got us off topic

even if BL is proven wrong, he will just sidestep the issue, and argue some other minutia.

I’m tired of you BL. However, I will not allow Ordered to become your little playground because you have chased all intelligent, logical people out with your sideshow tactics
again I have a different opinion on issues and you call it sideshow tactics. I’ll ask again, why can’t I have a different opinion?

34

you can have the opinion.

I have stated this sooooo many times, I can only believe you choose not to read it.

IMPOSE

how many times do I have to write that word, before you realize you should change your name to IMPOSE?

35

Ah, I see. So this is how a civilized ordered debate goes. Attack the person and their argument style. Why bother addressing hte subject, when a point of view is far more valid when the other person is so disgusted they don’t even want to reply to a thread.

36

I am with you on that red. Ordered is starting to lose the funness it once had. That sucking noise Ross Perot and Ralph Nader talk about isn’t about jobs going overseas but about fun in Ordered being taken out :slight_smile:

Chill out everyone. Disagreements are a part of debating here. If something offends you, take a break from the thread, PM me or another mod, etc. Don’t make me get the Level 2.4 Swat Exterminator Team in here and bug spray this place. I am really not kidding on that…or am I?

If you all can’t discuss nicely, maybe we need to do like 99% of all the other non-political sites and forbid political, Ordered discussions on these forums. This section is created for designers who may want to talk about interesting topics. This section is not designed for people to bully each other. That’s what the Battle forum is for!

:sailor:

37

I was doing some Googling looking for UK and US gun deaths statistics, and I realized that I need to just look for violent crime and/or murder to see the percentage based on populate of the two lands. I think the car, bow, coconut statement is completly valid. If guns control is saving lives then you would assume that deaths dropped since the UK enacted gun control right? While I am looking, can anyone tell me when the UK enacted its gun control laws?

38

The latest addition to the gun laws in Britain came in 1997. Unless you want to talk about the air gun ban. Interestingly enough almost all links that I searched suggested that gun control in Britain has been less than effective. A large black market has apeared and gun violence is on the rise. These were almost entirely British sources I was looking at, so it makes me wonder, Ave do you read the newspaper in your country?

39

I am sure there are still robberies and crimes like that. I wonder if they are using something other than guns to committ these crimes. Like your basic low class street thug, is he using a weapon to rob people on the street, or is he using a gun illegaly, or did all street crime end with the removal of weapons??

40

** moving this to the correct thread. It is in refference to Vulcan saying I am comparing apples to oranges **

Back to the debate here though, I am only comparing apples and oranges when I say they are both fruit. Sure a car is not a gun, but both kill. An apple is not an orange, but they are both fruit. Step back from the fact that you might drive a car every day to make your life easier…is it any less dangerous because you use it? Do you really need a car for that matter? Would your life cease to exist if you had your car taken away? Now, do you think you have a right to own a car? I do, just as I think I have the right to own a gun.