I read alot of forums where… well the what people thought bothered me, so I figure what the community I respect thinks…
Did the USA lost vietnam? I think it did, it failed all military goals as well as political, finaly withdrawing in the face of defeat. By the time the 70’s rolled around the NVA where attacking already deep south, withing SVA controled territory…
I think it was a defeat and a success. Of course they lost the war and we lost way too many men because it was a nearly un-winnable war. But at least we showed the world that we were willing to go to war to stop the spread of communism. I think it at least made countries think twice before becoming communist or trying to take over another country that was democratic and forcing them to be communist.
But is communist such a bad thing?
I mean, why is it bad. With communism (not speaking as a Russian) Russia had a strong economy, it was a superpower, with democracy people have barely enough money to survive, economy and the army is in the pooper. And nations like Cuba, which prosepered under communism, not much but it did.
I’m not going to get into the communism thing here. But as everyone has agreed upon, USSR was NOT a communist nation. The “communism” in the world back then was pretty bad.
What happened to USSR? They pretty much went bankrupt. It was a very bad system and did not work.
Umm. Yeah, we should not get in to a Communist argument but since you posted that I must respond 
USSR , was a communist nation, a diffrent variation of communism. Just like USA is not a truly democratic nation.
Communism back then in the western world was parralell to bad, but not for any real reason.
USSR, was in an economic slow down, and could have gotten itself out, if not for Perestroika. It was a system that worked pretty well. Remeber if it was a bad system how come USSR was a superpower then, and now Russia is just a hole in the ground, with a system , thats supposed to work?
True Commmunisn is an utopist belief. What the russians had was Stalinism - a dictatorship - as well as Cuba and China. I guess true communism never really happened because people saw in this type of government an easy target to become leaders…
For vietnam - I do think it was a total failure. The US was the world leader and no one could refuse anything - especially people who had lost WWII… Vietnam showed that a small country without many ressources could still fight back for its independance using guerrilla-type warfare.
The other failure was that images of war terror and death reached back home, as well as soldier who came back wounded and told about how horrible war was, pictures came back of children burnt with napalm.
What’s more politically things didn’t go well back home - after Eisenhower and Kennedy who had done ok (except the Cuban Missile Crisis maybe), Nixon arrived and ‘promised to stop the war’… He ordered bombers to drop more bombs on north Vietnam and cambodia, telling the pilots to shut their mouth and hiding this from the people. When people got hold of what had happened - mass murder - the war was considered unjust back in the US. And when it came to negociations to end the war (neither party had won - commies/NorthViet or US) nixon was heavily criticized by the international community as to the bombings. The Paris peace agreement didn’t solve anything. The North Vietnamese actually ‘won’ the war since they invaded south Vietnam and took hold of presidency/regency…
The thing some people argue that because while the USA was there, they kept the NVA away, only after handing it over to the SVA and leaving did the SV fell… So technecaly it wasnt a USA loss but a SVA.
True, there never was a true communism, but was there ever true democracy? I beleive once in Greece and that fell through faster than you can say “whosjodaddy!”
Well, keeping actual “word definition” aside, what do you think then Phil? There hasnt been a declared war in a long, long time. (not counting Desert Storm)
Also, do you think its possible to find a single combat infantry man who says that US didnt lose the “war/police action”
Hmm… I dont beleive Vietnam was a economical blow against the USSR…
I think it was actualy worse for the US. The only thing USSR supplied Vietnam was with small arms, and some men (in secrecy) to train them. But mostly small arms and a few tanks (t-34) again, old and extremely cheap (ww2 left overs) the most expensive things was SAM’s but then again, that was the only thing, very little of an economical blow.
for the record.
from www.Dictionary.com
de·moc·ra·cy ( P ) Pronunciation Key (d-mkr-s)
n. pl. de·moc·ra·cies
Government by the people, exercised either directly or through elected representatives.
A political or social unit that has such a government.
The common people, considered as the primary source of political power.
Majority rule.
The principles of social equality and respect for the individual within a community.
According to that definition, the USA is a true Democracy.
to add a few points
The United States of America is not a Democracy. Simply put, a democracy dephined comes down to this; One person, one vote; And all major issues are voted upon by each person, with no representatives as we have here.
We are a ‘Representative Republic’ which means we elect Representatives to vote for us as groups of people. And our government, if studied by it’s actions, past wars (some 236 of them) decrees and legal system, would be best called a ‘Plutocratic Representative Tri-Partate shared power Republic’
Semantics entirely. A representative republic may also be a Democracy. See above.
As there is no true democratic state, nor has there ever been, so it is with communism. They both, are basically ideals, set phorth by people of dipherent persuasians;
Communism was born because of Capitalism, without the rise of Capitolism, Communism would probably not be here nor have phound its way to the slimey surphace of National Governments; i.e. Would not exist. It is a product of unintended consequences.
This isn’t exactly false, but it’s not true either. Tribal people sometimes form societies in which all property is communal. Because they had never read Marx, they could not have defined themselves as Communist, but they still had all the ideas in the right places.
China is a Capitalist nation now. But it not a Representative Republic; China is also a Communist nation as well; And as no nation before us, nor any now here, China is a part of the Cimmunist ideals, just as America is part of the Capitalist ideals; Each is on their own end of the spectrum;
These two terms are opposites. One cannot be communist and capitalist. One can be capitalist with socialistic ideals however, which both China and the US are, at differing levels.
Personally, I do not like to use single words to try to describe something so immense, as a government that rules 300 million people; To call a nation of such size communist, doesn’t tell anyone very much; Are they totalatarian? Capitalist? Dicatatorial?
True, besides the fact that they are not even communist.
Is the Military used to police the population in any way? (bad)
Is it bad… If for instance, the military were completely non-corupt, and always instilled Justice. would it still be “bad”? Just a thought.
Didnt , in the elections the majority vote for Gore?
just poppin in to share my opinion…
Vietnam was the worst tradgedy that America had faced to date. It was certainly a defeat. Here’s why.
#1. Our men who were there, not only had to deal with horror upon horror, life scarring experiences that left them wondering if perhaps they should be dead, but also horrible experiments by our own military. they were tested on with drugs that did horrible things, they were forced to conduct experiments, experiments on LIVING ANIMALS that i won’t even go into becuase i might barf on my keyboard. the point is, there has always been bad thigns that happen during war, but Vietnam is when we finally crossed all the lines that we had not before. Vietnam is when the morality of our govornment went down the crapper.
after being subjected to all this, our men came back, to be greeted and loved and welcomed by America?
I THINK NOT. they were scorned, ridiculed, and treated as if they were the criminals, and they had not been DYING for a COUNTRY that they BELIEVED IN, a CONTRY that ABANDONED them in SPITE of their SACRIFICE and LOVE.
after Vietnam, our military enrollment dropped over 70%. our faith as a country in our govornment and military plummeted, and still hasn’t been rebuilt. IMO, all honor went flying out the window, and when we actually pulled our heads out of our a55es and realized that, instead of fixing the problem, we turned our backs and said, well hey, nevermind, ill just pretend everythings cool and nothing happened and become a casual observer instead.
so to summarize, why was vietnam a defeat?
because it was the turning point in america. the point where we learned that honor and morality make bad things happen, and apathy and disrespect are easier to handle. it was when america gave up.
The Vietnam War, in my view, was lost because there was no single goal for us being there. The military and political powers had their own motives for starting, supporting, and dismantling the military offensive with soldiers left in the crossfire.
After years of military successes, the US military believed that technology and firepower alone could supress any target. The propaganda against Communism (some good and some bad) was a great political reason for starting the war, and that wasn’t necessarily a bad reason either. As in any strategy, there need to be a few goals that everybody understands and feels a part of. I do not think the Vietnam War had any such unifying goals. The military felt it was there for a reason different than that of the what the leaders in DC felt.
The North Vietnamese had only one goal: defend/claim their land. They were doggedly determined, and they made up for their lack of firepower with the very effective AK-47 (which was easier to maintain and fire than the M16.)
As rG mentioned above, the press was brutal toward the troops who returned. It was a partial military loss in Vietnam and a complete military loss back in the US :block: At least the offensive showed that the US was willing to do whatever it can to prevent the spread of Communism.
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