*Originally posted by DDD *
**PR I strongly disagree. There is more to be a black male than I can ever write here. I have an unusually strong will and a gift a gab therefore I was able to get into college on scholarship and graduate. But it is extremely hard being a black man. And you will never understand or be able to draw a parallel. You may be able to sympathize and imagine. But believe me it is not easy as you make it sound. But I do agree this month is a treat for all because it is education for all. **
Life is hard for everyone regardless of skin color. I am sure it is difficult to be black in America, but it is also difficult to be white or yellow or brown…There are successful people of all skin shades and there are failures too.
oh please tell us of your struggles, downtrodden one…
Story time!
Rev
*Originally posted by reverendflash *
**oh please tell us of your struggles, downtrodden one…
Story time!
Rev **
I am talking about everyone rev. Why do you do this everytime I post? Everyone has hard times and everyone has good times. I believe what makes a person is what THEY do despite what is given or not given to them.
I am not putting down anyone for their beliefs and I know everyone has a certain degree of difficulty but I can only speak as a black male who I believe have some harshest sterotypes existing today. But I am like Revs friend who makes no excuse and just tries to be that much better. And I will continue to be that way. I wish everyone felt like that PR.
Lizzie:
because you have no idea what it is like to be of color (neither do I)…
so how can you say that “everyone has it tough?”
how many times in your life have you been held back because of your skin color? How many times have you not gotten a promotion because of your skin color?
tell us, oh wise one, how many?
Rev
*Originally posted by reverendflash *
**Lizzie:
because you have no idea what it is like to be of color (neither do I)…
so how can you say that “everyone has it tough?”
how many times in your life have you been held back because of your skin color? How many times have you not gotten a promotion because of your skin color?
tell us, oh wise one, how many?
Rev **
That is my point Rev, I don’t know what it is like to be black, black people don’t know what it is like to be American Indian, American Indians don’t know what it is like to be Asian, Asians don’t know what it is like to be Araba… I have never not gotten a job based on my skin color, but I also have never gotten accepted to a college based on my skin color over acedemic history. Both are discriminating tactics. Some overcome one and others overcome the other.
but that doesn’t mean you have it worse than anyone of color, which is what your post seemed to say.
The African American Male has more negative stereotypes associated with them, than any other group. They deal with more garbage on a daily basis, than any other group.
Education about that group can result in nothing but good things.
Just to say “everyone has it tough” is an insult, and a monument to your ignorance.
Rev
*Originally posted by reverendflash *
**but that doesn’t mean you have it worse than anyone of color, which is what your post seemed to say.
The African American Male has more negative stereotypes associated with them, than any other group. They deal with more garbage on a daily basis, than any other group.
Education about that group can result in nothing but good things.
Just to say “everyone has it tough” is an insult, and a monument to your ignorance.
Rev **
I NEVER said I had it worse. I was arguing that everyone has it bad and everyone has it good. It all depends on your optomisim (glass half full / half empty). All groups in America have been distrcriminated againsts in one form or another.
You second statement is arguable. I think hispanics are just as stereo typed as blacks, especially in border states, imo.
I totaly agree that education about a group is good. Go back and read my first post…who is ignorant?
Everyone does have it tough…haven’t you said to “put yourself in others shoes before you make generalizations”…
so does racism still exist? you tell me.
i’m black, successful, cultured and intelligent. i grew up in the suburbs, mainly around white people. i dress, act, think and speak like the businessman i am. YET these have all happened to me since 1994…in the past 10 years.
-I’ve been called the ‘N’ word about 15 times, by everyone from my school peers who thought it was funny, to store owners and police. in high school, i’ve even had a teacher tell me that i was wrong to get offended when called that word.
-I’ve had a gun held directly in my face 2 times in my life, by the police. both times, i was waiting in my car (a normal car…Nissan maxima) for a friend in a nice area during the afternoon doing absolutely nothing. one time, i was forced to the ground and handcuffed, after saying only, “what can i do for you, officer?”. note that i am not an imposing man, about 5’10" , 160, nor do i dress, speak or carry myself like a thug or criminal. i know that this is rare, and does not happen to most black people, especially most black suburban people, but it does happen, and i’d estimate about 10% of my black male college friends have seen guns up close and personal in this manner.
-I’ve been kicked out of a mall for “theft” when lord knows, my watch probably cost more than the whole store i was in. the clerk insisted “that she saw me pocket a CD”. of course, i had not done so, and thusly when i was searched, nothing was found. but i was escorted out of the mall anyway.
-I’ve had two college professors accuse me of cheating on two separate occasions…all have been based on similarity of test answers, a reasonable cause. all have been with the other student involved being white. what was unreasonable was that when looking at the similar tests, the professors on both occasions decided that I was the cheater, and the other (white) person was not guilty of anything other than sitting too close to me. note that in both cases, i had higher grades in the classes than the others involved. when investigated by the honor board, both were found to be ‘random’ similarities in our tests. what wasn’t ‘random’ was that a white person and a black person had similar tests, and the professor decided that even though the black person was doing better in his/her class, the black person was the cheater. and no, being accused of cheating the first time did not end up on my record as to influence the professor the second time. they came to the same erroneous conclusion independently: black people are more likely to cheat.
also note that in my university(UVa), cheating even one time, on anything, homework, test, quiz, was grounds for dismissal due to our very strict honor code. i was luckily able to prove that i had not cheated both times. if i had not, i would have lost tens of thousands of dollars in tuition fees, and years in school. i was at risk for losing that all simply because i was black. about 10% of my black friends in university were accused of cheating and all found innocent. none of my white friends were.
-I’ve even sent identical resumes to companies (as part of a sociology experiment in college) with different racial sounding names, and seen firsthand that the white sounding names like (John Martin) had almost a 10% percent higher success rate at landing interviews than black sounding names, like (Duane Williams). for positions where a picture had to be attached (certain sales positions), the white candidate had more than a 40% higher success rate at landing interviews. Both candidates were of “equal attractiveness” as decided by a prior study. and yes, i received an award for that study.
why do these horrible things happen? because America has decided that because i am black, i am a threat. i am less intelligent. i am more violent. i am dangerous. they have attributed characteristics to me that are not only incorrect, they are very damaging. yes…all stereotypes can be disparaging…“Asians are good at math”, “Hispanic people are loud”, “girls that dress like this are promiscuous”…but being thought of as dangerous and unintelligent is a BAD combination, and has a much larger cumulative negative effect on your life than being thought of as a nerd, or a dork or promiscuous or anything (as someone mentioned earlier). and most importantly…you can change being thought of as nerd/dork/whatever. you can dress up, get a nice car, make a lot of money and so on…no matter what i do, i will always be perceived as more dangerous and less intelligent than i would if i were white (by many people). (my next post will clear up some of the “statistics” commonly spouted to ‘explain’ why racism is really ok eg: crime rates, IQ scores and the like.)
note that this cultural inequality is the reason for the principle behind affirmative action. it says “you would have been at this level if society had treated you equally but it has not, so we will put you there anyway, and if we do it for a couple generations, hopefully we wont have to do it anymore because as you get some money and power, you will change society”. is it always accurate? no of course not. but does it help in certain ways? yes it does.
a “race-blind” college/job admissions policy would be great if the all the other things on the application were generated “race blind” as well…but teachers are not “race blind”, and they affect your application. if you want to hear horror stories about being one of the few black males in a predominantly white school, and teachers grading me lower than other people WITH THE SAME AVERAGES, i can tell you plenty.
i’m not saying that every interaction in my life has been horribly tinged with racial tension, or even that every black person experiences a large amount of visible racism. it’s not that its SO horribly unequal. its just that in many cases, when someone has to decide between giving you that ‘B+’ grade or that ‘A-’ grade , the black guy seems to frequently get the ‘B+’. or when you have to hire person A or person B with the same qualifications, and person B just happens to be black, person A just happens to get the job more frequently. and it really adds up over a lifetime. i’m not saying that it’s not getting better. it REALLY is getting better. but we’ve only been legally allowed/supported to even go to the same schools, live in the same towns and date the same women as you for 60 years. the part of the population currently in control of the bulk of the money and power in this country (60 yr old men) went to school when segregation was legal. many of them picketed outside of schools or protested with their absence when black were integrated. more than half of whites disagreed with integration, only 40 years ago. you can’t imagine that simply changing some rules will erase the memory of their youth. “getting over it” won’t suffice. it will take time and effort. and that effort will require help from our leadership…the ones that created the divide in the first place. with help and understanding our generation will be stronger, and more united than our fathers.
in closing, it wasn’t just the slavery that was bad…it was all of the laws that legally mandated blacks to poverty and being second class citizens, that kept blacks poor and grouped together…and many of these laws have been repealed only during the past 60 years. 300 years of legally-mandated-racism followed by 60 years of no-legally-mandated-racism does not level the field. this is why things like affirmative action are intended to help bridge that gap.
please understand that other ethnic groups did not face these same laws. (though there were times when other-anti-group laws would exist in specific locales, but for short durations, decades, not centuries) they faced racism…but they were legally allowed to succeed. while there were certainly angry mobs who killed polish people, and fights between Irish lawmakers and Italian immigrants over a span of almost 60 years, and while those are horrible things, they do not truly compare in scope to 300 years of laws essentially making it illegal for you to be equal in social, economic or political status to a white man. native Americans are the only other group in this country (though not in the world) who have had legally mandated racism of a similar degree…and yes, THERE IS A NATIVE AMERICAN MONTH! its November, and was established in 1990. and there is a Hispanic heritage month, its September.
if after learning all of this, you still think that the PRINCIPLE(even if not the execution) of a month to explain the history of the black experience in this country is not worthy, i must be living in the wrong country. one day…we will no longer need black awareness month, or affirmative action, or even the word ‘black’. until then, please try to understand other people a bit better, so we can get rid of those artificial creations to help understanding!
“especially in border states”
what is that, about 4, maybe 5 out of 50?
give me a break.
another example of narrow views…
if everyone has it tough, and one or more groups have it tougher, doesn’t that, by definition, make it that those groups have it tough, as compared to the rest?
see how your rhetoric is racially slanted? Not everyone has the same opportunities, not even close. A lot of the time, it is based on looks. It shows in your attitude, that you feel that everyone else is given a helping hand, and since you are white and educated, you have to “work” for everything you get. That is the ignorance I spoke of.
Rev
*Originally posted by reverendflash *
**“especially in border states”
what is that, about 4, maybe 5 out of 50?
give me a break.
another example of narrow views…
if everyone has it tough, and one or more groups have it tougher, doesn’t that, by definition, make it that those groups have it tough, as compared to the rest?
see how your rhetoric is racially slanted? Not everyone has the same opportunities, not even close. A lot of the time, it is based on looks. It shows in your attitude, that you feel that everyone else is given a helping hand, and since you are white and educated, you have to “work” for everything you get. That is the ignorance I spoke of.
Rev **
No because I was poor I had to work for everything I have. Again, I am not saying I have had any harder time than anyone else. I was given a life and I am living it to the best of my ability.
My dad is American Indian. When I travel back to the reservation in Montana, I see the descrimination that goes on there. When I was a kid we used the Indian hospital in downtown Phoenix. I overheard more than once Indians asking my white mom why she was bringing her white kids to “thier” hospital.
yes, and I experienced constant discrimination while I lived in Hawaii, as well.
it still does nothing to compare to African Americans.
That is my point.
your phrasing and general rhetoric is insulting, as it stinks of arrogance. Just because you were poor, and made your way, does not mean that someone of color with the same effort will get the same results. Chances are, he will get a lot less…
open your mind Lizzie, see the light…
Rev
What I am saying rev is that everyone has their own circumstances. Everyone has their own cross to bare. Sure a poor black kid may have a more difficult time that a poor white kid. But a poor white kid may have a harder time that a rich black kid. However any of these people can and have overcome their obsticals. You know a disabled kid of any color may a harder time than any of them. Open my mind? People like you need to take off the “colored” glasses if we iwll ever get rid of racisim. Let me say again, I am for Black history month. I am for educating all Americans about all other Americans.
I think we are not there yet.
I also think you’re minimalizing this issue just a bit.
That is what I am having fun with.
Rev
blindlizard, i agree with your basic premise, and even your specific points…
yes, i think a rich black male has an easier time than a poor white male, and a disabled male has a more difficult time than both. this is true and substantiated by research.
and it’s also pretty easy to say it matter-of-factly when you’re not the poor black male, or the handicapped male.
“taking off the colored glasses” would be great, but the “colored glasses” have been on for so many generations that they’ve resulted in a huge inequality in our country. and now you want all Americans to just say “ok, lets move on!”
what would you say if we went to local governments and bought millions of people who had red hair and enslaved them for 200 years, then killed them at will, beat them and oppressed them with laws and cultural segregationist beliefs, created beliefs that they were stupid and dangerous and legally forced them to settle and be educated only with other redheads for another 100 years…now it’s 2304
and by 2364, you want to say “ok back to normal folks, take off your eye-colored glasses and stop paying attention to eye color, it’s now an equal playing field, you can get by on your effort!!!”
how do you think you would feel if you were one of those red heads? be honest, how would you feel?
and besides that, you can’t “take the glasses off”. that is a rhetorical statement. your opinion of blacks will change based on your knowledge and your experiences, not on theoretical glasses. the fastest way to change people’s opinions is to change the status of blacks in the country.
ignoring this country’s legacy of racism will not destroy that legacy. only by understanding it and accepting it can we move on and fix the problems we have created.
It’s a character idea as well.
More so in my opinion.
Granted it takes time to try and change things, but how do you suppose to “change the status” of blacks in America?
Through legislative laws?
Or education and example?
I hope its not through laws. That would be unconstitutional; granted perhaps that people act unconstitutional in their racism and prejudice…but then again they are people. So you would have to change the people not the laws.
The laws for equality already exist - people don’t follow them by choice.
i think that laws that would force people to treat blacks equally would work…BUT i enjoy my freedom, and do not wish that on anyone. for example, one of america’s most vilified enemies, cuba, had even more african slaves as the US(as a percentage). when castro made cuba communist, guess what happened? it drastically reduced racism in that country because in the period of 10 years, he basically erased the economic and social hierarchy…and that is what racism creates, an economic hierarchy. communism leveled the playing field…took property away from everyone and made them start at zero, educated them all in the same level of schools. if/when cuba becomes a free market, it really will be on a level field, with blacks having as much property and education as cubans. cuba is esentially level now.
it just goes to show, you can’t really start over unless you wipe the slate clean.
that said, i woudln’t wish anything like that on this country, and i strongly value my freedoms. i think america will change when several things happen.
- education reaches the urban youth, and is re-prioritized as this countries number 1 issue. we will spend 90billion dollars on rebuilding Iraq. (20 billion of which is estimated to go into people’s pockets due to severe overcharging). we are giving them things like wireless internet in schools and satellite cable in their limos for officials. can you imagine for one second what 90 billion dollars could do to reform our educational system? what if we could through the use of celebrities and media make even 30% more urban and rural white and black youth re-prioritize school? what if we could decrease classroom size to the point where even the worst, most misbehaved students couldn’t disrupt classes? what if we could ensure that everyone of academic ability who wants to, can attend a good 4 year college? do you know what this would mean?
it would mean that in about 20 years, we would have a drastically different country than we do today. our currency would be stronger in the world market. our economy would be stronger at home. you and i would have more money in our pockets, and we would be without a substantial portion of the kids that would have grown up to be drug dealers, drop outs and nobodies.
- social programs that promote growth reach urban America. our current leaderships social agenda sometimes contradicts itself. we all want less people on welfare, republicans and democrats alike. but republicans widely do not support a series of “getting off of welfare programs” that provide assistance such as child care and education reimbursements to people who are working and trying to get out of the cycle of poverty. failure to promote needed things like this promote the cycle of failure.
in my opinion, those two things will make the big difference. affirmative action, while it’s nice in principle, doesn’t really all that much. why? because what’s the big difference if as a black person gets into a top 40 college versus a top 30 college…not too much. or if a black-owned company gets this government contract instead of a white firm…probably again not much… that person or company is already going to “succeed”. they are already on the right path. i’d rather have a much larger percentage of blacks going to college and starting companies, than just bolster the ones we have. we need to hit this problem at the roots, the urban youth.
what happens if we don’t?
well let’s see…does anyone here travel? i’m in Canada and Europe frequently for work. I’ve started to notice a sinking feeling in my wallet when i go abroad…every year, American currency is worth less and less in the world…and it’s going to get worse. each and every one of you who has the idea “it’s my money, and i don’t want to give my tax dollars to some poor slob who has no motivation or drive” can keep saying that…but unfortunately its far from the truth, and even worse, it’s going to make that little bit of money you have worth even less.
our educational system is crap, plain and simple. 30 years from now, we won’t be able to compete in the one natural resource that every country is blessed with the potential for, human intelligence. the same “poor slob” that you don’t want to help today will be dragging your dollar down with them next decade.
and our competition is helping out all of their poor slobs…and raking in the dough because of it.
don’t get me wrong. i like my money. i make a nice salary. in fact, bush’s tax cut saved me over 3 grand this year. but guess what…even with that 3 grand, my salary was worth less than what it was last year compared with a good bulk of the 1st world’s economies…don’t think it matters? wait till you want to buy that Japanese TV or that European car in 30 years. if we stay on the same track…you won’t even be able to dream of it.
and for all those people who think that these “trickle-down” policies help those who are motivated and punish those who are lazy, think again. we’re all getting punished.
the current president’s term has set the record for home foreclosures and bankruptcies. who has homes to foreclose on, and assets to protect with a bankruptcy? you do. i do. the working middle and upper middle class does. a lazy poor slob on welfare doesn’t have a home or any assets. so who is really being hurt here? look at the numbers…it’s us. don’t be fooled by the numbers that are spouted in a vaccum by the media “GDP increased by 5%…consumer confidence increased by 10%”…do you know how much any other countries GDP or consumer confidence increased? no?..well then dont worry about ours. worry about the flailing currency and the number of americans losing their assets.
even if you disagree with me, do your research, talk to people who are similar to you, and those who are different, and find the truth. don’t settle for rehashed fox news headlines.
notionpil… thank you so much for taking some time from your busy schedual to talk with us. You’re educated opinion is well received… and even though I feel well educated (by my own hand… not the government’s glorious “no child left behind” education system) on this subject, you’ve managed to bring info to me which I haven’t encountered before. I feel I’ve actually gained something this black history month.
Peace sir…
my prayers tonight will, as always… plea for a time when we all will look at the current climate and feel as alien from it as we do of the 1800’s.
upuaut,
i honestly think that by the time we have grandchildren, things will be drastically different. even though we don’t all agree on these racial issues, we are all at least willing to discuss these issues, and learn more about them. that is an important change. 40 years ago, i would have been beaten for saying things like this in public.
even initiaties like “no child left behind” which are from what i understand very poorly implemented (two of my best friends are teachers, one in a rich suburban area, and another in a poor urban area), are laying the foundation for catching us up with other countries. why? because people like us, even those who may not understand everything about racial and socio-economic relations, but know that injustices exist, will help things. the more noise(and money) we make, the more politicians listen. and someday, the country and all of the lawmakers will no longer be “them”, they will be “us”.
all of “us”, especially the educated among us have interacted with all races, blacks, whites, asians, indians and more. no matter how many stereotypes we have, we are far more understanding and knowledgable than our parents generation, simply because of the exposure education provides.
in my college graduating class, there were 2x as many blacks as there were 20 years before, and that class in turn had more than 2x as many as 40 years before. black socio-economic status continues to grow with education, and increasing social programs targeting urban areas will only speed that growth. similar growth is occuring in latino populations, and has already occured much more quickly in indian and asian populations. this education and economic growth is the ladder to change, and will truly “level the playing field”.
if we keep up these trends, in 40 years the real need for “african american history month” may well just be history…we won’t need it anymore. of course, we can always keep it around for kicks
maybe it will be turned into a “American history month”. We could always use one of those.
History in my opinion is the most important of all subjects… Lowel’s book which I linked to earlier shows how and perhaps why history seems to be intentional taught this way. Those who don’t know their history are destined to repeat it. That’s not just a pretty phrase people it’s a factual, proven truth… and if you knew your history, you’d know that already. 
