Black History Month Thread

Sure sure… I will not deny that there are still many aspects of racism left in American. Many of these do parallel the problems faced by Blacks during slavery era. I’m just saying that it is very unlikely that you are going to die for voicing decent these days. (ok MLK, Malcolm X, etc… there are cases of Blacks being killed for voicing decent a little too loudly for “da man” to accept.) In general though I think you know I’m not disparaging your movement. I believe in equality and will fight side by side in any endevor that seeks that end.

Peace

and may my people understand the hardships of your people a little more this month. (not that I find that likely with all the self absorbed people in America but hey…we can all wish and pray.)

Give them a month, or a season, or a decade…what ever they feel is neccessary to have their voice heard. A lot of bad things happened in black histiry in the United States as has a lot of good things. As a group, I think it is there duty to keep reminding the rest of us of both. History is an important tool to be used so as not to make the same mistakes. As long as we remember the hardships endured by a group, we will have a better chance of not repeating them. I am American Indian. I think it is important we remember what happened during colinization and westward expansion. I also think it is important to see what happens to a group that is pushed into small remote areas for containment…i.e. the rampid drung an alcohol abuse on reservations, which is compounded by shifting of money from the working class in America to destitute on reservations. I think Jews have a right to keep us reminded of the holocaust, Christians of persecution throughout Roman times. Witches in early American history. Imagrants of all nationalities and religions during the late 1800s. Women before and after the suffrage movement. Any group has the right and obligation to keep reminding us…because all groups have suffered in America in one way or another, and with that I think no one owes anyone anything at this point but the information to keep it from happening again.

Agreed it is very important to learn of others cultures…Not just African Americans. I for one am very intrigued by the Asian culture and their perspective on things. Just remember this month is a time to educate nothing more nothing less. Not a I am better than you contest. I seriously would like to see some other months for other cultures.

I really liked the way Upuat and Blind Lizard put it…I cant say it better.

I probably came off way too hard in that earlier response.

I just feel that to celebrate because “its due you” is wrong. Celebrate for celebrating, don’t make it a past hurt issue.

Let’s learn and grow from here, not bring up the past every February. I love to hear about the contributions and achievements, but I don’t like to hear about the oppression and such. Yes it happened, and yes it was wrong…but its over. Face the issues of today as fresh and new ones.

Sorry if I came off to harsh. I love the “melting pot.”

I think you came off the way I initally felt pr. I get blinded (hehe blind) by things like affirmative action and the talk of reperations. This sometimes makes me numb to group issues other than my own. I think as long as we have a few loud voices saying “hey my group suffered more than yours and you owe me because of that” that we will never get away from this knee jerk reaction. I look forward to the day when we get to MLK’s dream of not judging a man by the color of his skin but by the content of his character, but things like affirmative action keep slowing it down.

and I too agree…that’s a frustrating issue. I just try to keep in mind that it is not each black person’s fault that there are stupid people in the world. Often I get angry about those issues because I do believe that some black people may need an added advantage to get the same position in the same company for the same money. On the same tokin I cannot abide discriminating against anyone, which AA certainly does. I think it was a good idea on paper and we’ve proven that we need a new good idea to take that one’s place. I shout to the world. I’m die hard liberal and I don’t like Afirmative action. The two are not linked inherantly. Heck all of my friends are liberal as well and none of them like afirmative action either… black or white. It seems to me that the liberals are getting a really crappy name from a few really dumb members of our camp. I hope you conservatives can see that not all of us blindly follow any old idea that comes along.
To solve this I’ve come up with a new title for people like me. The conservatives have their “compassionate conservative”. I’ve decided that what I am is a “heartless liberal”. :)~

Yeah do agree that people think of black history month as something we deserve (we meaning black people). But I believe it is something that everyone deserves. Since it is a large chunk of American History. This is really not a competition with AA’s pitted against another group. I personally do not think America owes me anything which is why I went out and earned my scholarship and earned my degree. Without a handout. And I wish to open doors for fellow minorities as well as my African American counterparts without discriminating against anyone. If we did more of this, things like African American History Month will be viewed in a different light. As will any other cultural celebration. I do find it shameful that African American History Month is viewed so negatively by a few on this board and viewed as a handout to the Black people instead of a handout to all who see the commercials or read some literature or learn from it. Education is universal.

Chinese - built the Transcontinental railroad, many many inventions I will not spend the time to look up. Discriminated as much as black people ever were.

Irish/Catholic - Probably one of the most discriminated groups out there. Yet they were one of the big reasons America became as industrialized and as powerful as it is today.

Jews - discriminated against in america very badly (not holocaust bad, but as bad as African Americans). Einstein did a little to help physics, and many more but I’m not going to write this down.

Latinos - many contributions, and the first minority president will also be latin. They are currently being discriminated against in many areas.

WASPs

I could go on, but…

Also, just a little side note. I hope you aren’t one of those people that thinks slavery was actually like “Master beats his slaves every day and works them to death while giving them nothing.” Most slave owners were kind to their slaves and gave them good accomodations that were infinitely better than the places some people in New York and other big urban cities had. So they didn’t earn money or get to vote. Many people in those days worked 12+ hour work days earning less than what it cost to afford shelter and food. Yes, families were broken up and they were forced to go where told, but few people besides the WASPs had it easy in those days. I’m not saying slavery was/is good, but it was certainly (at least in most places) not as bad as some people seem to believe it was.

p.s. I love black history month.

hmm…

Also, just a little side note. I hope you aren’t one of those people that thinks slavery was actually like “Master beats his slaves every day and works them to death while giving them nothing.” Most slave owners were kind to their slaves and gave them good accomodations that were infinitely better than the places some people in New York and other big urban cities had.

And you know this from first hand experience? Even if that point is unprovable either way at this point. They were forced to fight their own kind for their masters. They were removed from their natural habitat and specificaly bred to be passive and strong. They COULD be abused at any time without repercussions etc. The arguement that they had it good is an old one from the days of “Birth of a Nation” and it’s a big fat lie designed to make the black people feel bad that they are upset with us.

Sure… you’re not saying that they had it good… just not as bad as some make it out to be. Well it also wasn’t as good as you’re making it out to be.

so they didn’t earn money or get to vote. Many people in those days worked 12+ hour work days earning less than what it cost to afford shelter and food. Yes, families were broken up and they were forced to go where told, but few people besides the WASPs had it easy in those days. I’m not saying slavery was/is good, but it was certainly (at least in most places) not as bad as some people seem to believe it was.

Each of those people who had it hard chose to travel that path. They were active in their destiny. Slavery is bad for many reasons, but the main one that I can think of is the disenfranchising of a living person’s right to choose. Who the hell cares if it was better or worse than people say… it was slavery plain and simple. To even bother arguing that it “wasn’t as bad” belittles what each one of those black’s fought for, and tears apart what my own culture stands for.

I understand what you are trying to say… but it’s still insulting to me.

I think the main problem is still that folks think it is a contest or something. It is education plain and simple. And if you are American you should especially be interested in the full history of America. The part that was left out for many years.

Some of your statements could be deemed as insulting for both minorities and whites at least from my standpoint. But thanks for sharing your perspective.

btw… for people interested in a WELL documented book that actually makes American history interested I’ll repost this link. I promote Lowels book whenever I can.

(this is a LONG message, but i feel its necessary. it took me about 2 hours !while i’m at work! to write this, so you can tell how important of as issue it is. if you’d like to learn more about why things like black history month, or racism exist, its a good start. also if you’d like my sources for any of this information i have them. it’s all fact, and its all from real sources)

well let me start by saying, some of the under-informed opinions presented in this thread show why black history month exists…it is intended to educate America, including black people, about black history. it clearly fails in many ways, as judging by the fact that a forum full of educated, intelligent people are truly lacking a real understanding of the black experience in America. black history month is neither well received, nor is it effective in informing Americans, but it does have a just purpose.

firstly, let me give you some perspective.

yes, i am black. no, i am not a screaming activist. i hold a degree from a top 20 university. i have extensively studied computers, history and political science. i am a successful systems engineer and web/flash developer. three of my five best friends whom i’ve lived with and known for over 15 years are white. i’ve dated white women, and black women, and asian women and so on. i do not have a “chip on my shoulder” against the white people of America. however, these things do not mean that i am unable to recognize the reality of present racism and inequality in America, and how that present racist thought is built on past racism and inequality.

let me say that again because of it’s importance: the present racism and inequality in America is based on past racism and inequality.

what are these past inequalities? well lets start by addressing one issue that frequently seems to have been arising in this discussion. not all racism in this country was directed at black people. our land was plundered from Native Americans as we all know. millions of Native Americans were killed, with over 70% of them being victims of smallpox, brought over at first un-intentionally by conquistadors…then later, intentionally as the invaders provided blankets and tainted foods and water used by their own smallpox patients to spread the disease. war took the lives of many as well. some lands were bought, some taken by force. but in a span of less than 300 years, almost all of America was wrestled from the hands of Native Americans. i feel that we can all agree that this was a true tragedy, to rival or supercede slavery in terms of its ramifications for a race.

because of this atrocity, Americans, meaning you and I, have given reparations to another group for something that happened hundreds of years ago. this means that out of every dollar you earn, a certain small portion goes towards reparations for Native Americans. do we all understand this? YOU ALREADY PAY REPARATIONS, in the form of government sponsored land, grants, tax incentives and social programs. you can’t make the statement that you will never pay reparations, unless you have a really great tax attorney and don’t give a cent to the Govt. yet, the mere mention of reparations to blacks causes even the loosest lipped liberal’s hair to stand on end.

now, lets attempt to understand slavery and its ramifications a bit. lets address some facts, for all of you out there who understand slavery so little as to think that it was little more than a free ride to the states.

-approximately 10 million Africans were bound and brought to the Americas between 1500 and 1870.

-slaves were acquired in many forms, some were captured, but most were purchased, with approximately 70% being bought. this does not mean that they were slaves before they were bought, most purchased slaves were normal, free, young adults in geographically poor farming areas (sub-Sahara) that could not sustain a solid crop yield.

additionally, it was common practice for European slavetakers to tell Africans that the people bought would work for a certain period, and then be able to start their lives anew…these lies made slavery seem more like a temporary period of servitude (which was common for slavery in many cultures; Rome, Egypt, china).

-approximately 2.5 million were estimated to die during the trip.

-the mortality rate for slaves in America averaged 400% that of European settlers during the same time period. the life expectancy of a slave was less than half of that for a settler.

-in 1600 more than TWICE AS MANY SLAVES were in America as Europeans. slaves were the main labor force that laid the foundation for the country. period.

-in 1790 with the mass migrations and death rated, slaves represented as little as 25% of the country as taken by the first US census. the chinese who came voluntarily, (and faced hardships and died) to build the railroads represented less than 1% for many many decades to come.

-my great, great grandfather was a slave. if you wish, i can bring up some personal stories from his experience…and no they are not pretty stories of being treated well and living in better conditions than those in other cities.

in reference to what someone posted earlier: NO this is not the equivalent of my saying he was a confederate general…it is me saying “my family was brought here against their will, and subjugated for 3 centuries, and i’m still going to succeed”. saying he is a confederate general would mean you were saying that he took a side in a war, and that he was a powerful and successful man…something to be proud of surely, but for very different reasons. one being, your grandfather made a choice to be what he was, mine did not.

ok, so lets analyze our slavery information here for a second.

~10m blacks were bought(~7m) and taken(~3m) from Africa. does that mean slavery was OK because many slaves were bought? well let’s use some logic here… i’m sure we could find plenty of countries around the world who would still sell us slaves…heck, they’d sell us human sacrifices for US dollars…but does that mean that our government isn’t doing something wrong by using them, just because someone is offering to sell? in fact…we bought most of this country from the native Americans…was it done in a just manner? i think we can agree not. just because someone is willing to sell doesn’t make buying ok. especially if you lie to them about the terms of the sale.

slavery was a horrible atrocity that took the lives of millions back then, and continues to affect the lives of those today…how? whites say commonly, “it happened in the past, get over it, move on and lets all come together as a nation.” well, i’ll tell you, i’d love to come together. i wish there wasn’t a need for black history month. heck, i wish there wasn’t a need for the word ‘race’, or ‘black’. but there is. why?

because slavery and early racism set the stage for later racial inequalities in this country. slavery created a great divide, both legally and economically.

when your (european) ancestors came here, 200 years, or seven generations ago on average…they had very little, but a desire to work hard and build themselves up. they got here, faced adversity, discrimination (yes, essentially every major group of immigrants has faces discrimination) and then hopefully, carved themselves out a piece of the pie.

seven generations ago, my ancestors wanted the same, and began with the same, little to nothing. however…if we can’t agree that racism exists now, lets at least agree that it existed full force 200 years ago…remnants of the atrocity of slavery that was just ending. that means while your ancestors probably faced angry neighbors and harsh words, maybe even racially motivated beatings and deaths…mine faced far worse. government sanctioned lynch mobs. no schools to attend. laws preventing them from having any political say. laws making it legal for them to be physically beaten in public for even disagreeing with a white man. the bulk of these things have just been made illegal in the past 70 years…

so while your family was on its third generation, buying land, or maybe establishing a profession, or sending people to university…my family was trying to find a farmer or factory owner that would ALLOW blacks to work there.

while your family was on its fifth generation in the 1930’s, possibly becoming business owners and doctors…my family was congregating in primarily black cities because other cities didn’t want them, and made it ILLEGAL for them to live there. they were unable to attain professional permits such as law and MD’s in non-black counties, and it was illegal to practice there. their schools were so ill-equipped that most of them had 1st graders in the same room with 10th graders…ever wonder why black people love their cars so much? because in the 40’s and 50’s while whites had homes as status symbols, blacks could not…because whites would not sell them nice homes, or homes in nice neighborhoods…and in most counties, blacks were not allowed to even possess building or construction permits…the government essentially said “you will live here”. my great grandfather, who owned over 20 houses at a single time, still lived in a small 3 bedroom with his large family…despite his wealth, because there was no nice house for him to move into in Chesapeake county as a black man.

now that we are on our seventh generation, how do you expect blacks to be on the same playing field as whites? that’s like playing 10 hands of poker, where one person has a whole deck, and the other has a deck without any face cards…and then playing one regular hand, and saying…“well the game was fair, because the last hand was fair”. it will take many generations to overcome the wrongs that slavery set into motion. things like affirmative action are steps that will assist this.

(continued in next post)

Affirmative Action, while good in intent is now racism.

You speak well man. And you are right with your facts and statistics.

However let’s keep in mind that the month is about educating…not making someone feel they “owe” something when they had nothing to do with it.

My comment about the confederate general was to point out something.

Heritage is heritage. Being a confederate soldier does not mean you were fighting to keep slavery. Not always.

So would a person be allowed to wear such a shirt in public without being called a racist? And remember the entire nation not just the south supported the slavery movement. And the war wasn’t in fact even about slavery.

I’m just saying that yes, nowadays a person of ethnic origin has the same capabilities as a “white” person. (guess white people aren’t ethnic…)

You made a good analogy with the deck of cards statement however, not all “white” peoples’ lives have been cozy dream houses in the suburbs though. Everyone struggles.

We live in today. We live now.

It doesn’t matter what your skin color is, it matters how strong your will is.

We all face a form of prejudice each day. Short, tall, fat, skinny, average, hot, unattractive, geeky, jock–etc.

I’m all about the education. I just hope that someday there are Irish History Months, and Native American History Months, Eastern European History Months, Hispanic History Months, and White History Months…oops I said it… What if there was a National Association for the Advancement of White People? People would scream Hitler until the cows came home…or a White-American Collegiate Fund? In this day and age, people throw around “white” and “black” wayyyy too often. Just be equal and loving to one another. Skin color doesn’t matter. We should admire the struggle of all ethnicities, and respect cultures, but not show special treatment because of it…how can one person be more important than another?

Minorities exist, but I don’t believe in them. I have too many awesome “ethnic minority” friends and I refuse to look at them as a “minority.” A lot of “ethnic minorities” cringe when you say “ethnic” or “minority.”

The line in the racial sand just needs to be swept away.

you know, PR…

I used to think the same way. Until very recently, as a matter of fact. However, I have begun to realize that we are not in that place, that we can “erase ethnic predjudice,” not yet anyway.

There are just way too many narrow minded, intolerant, ignorant people out there, who just don’t get it. Then there are some, who don’t even realize they are being racist.

Until we stop building prisons for our youth, and start rebuilding our schools, especially in the Inner City, this will need to continue.

Just look @ Arizona. The only state in the Nation that does not observe MLK, Jr. day… They say it is not because of race, yet they won’t give up another day in support… Could it have something to do with the racial makeup of Arizona, perhaps?

Before we start eliminating Affirmative Action, we should start teaching tolerance. That doesn’t mean acceptance. Tolerance is just acknowledging the ability of others to think differently than you, and not taking any action (mental or physical) towards those who look different.

Just my view on sweeping away the line… it sounds really cool, but I don’t think we are there yet…

Rev

Rev,

Thank you- means a lot to me.

We aren’t there. :frowning: Hopefully though, if those who already are there will show the way; it will get easier and easier.

:slight_smile:

I was arguing that very position just a year ago… Since then, I have seen that we, as a society in general, are not there yet.

Hopefully, the more discussions just like this one, will help.

Rev

some good points, prstudio. and thanks for your reply, rev.

i have another post of equal size to the first, which i will put up later…the first was about the past state of racism, and the second is about the present state of racism.

with regards to the “general t-shirt” i partially agree. a confederate soldier or general may have had no different of an attitude towards slavery than the average northerner…but the symbol of a confederate general still has a political ramification. he was on a side of what America considers to be a political movement. wearing that shirt itself would not be racist, but it would instead indicate that the wearer might have political opionions similar to the sumbol on the shirt…and the SYMBOL has views which would be racist.

much as if a person wore a shirt saying “my father was a suicide bomber in Iraq” many americans would have a problem with it. that persons father may or may not have agreed with the regime’s ideals, he may have even been forced to kill himself for his country…but it doesnt matter, the shirt is a symbol for a movement. wearing that shirt doesn’t mean you are anti american. it simply would indicate that its possible that you have similar views as the symbol on the shirt, and the SYMBOL has views that are anti-american.

the point of wearing a slave shirt(which i would NEVER EVER DO) would be like wearing one of those innane"i survived Attica" shirts. what political decision did a slave make? what symbolic issue did he take a stance on? none. he is the symbol for oppression. thusly the shirt says “i was oppressed”. that is not symbolically linked to a racist view.

so, is the “slave t-shirt” racist? no. is it pushing the line, and reminding everyone that you are different and mad, and annoying at the same time? yes.

as far as your other points, stereotypes we all face (racial and otherwise) and the concept of other minorities having “months” will be addressed in the next post (Hispanics and Native Americans do have months by the way; September and November).

*Originally posted by prstudio *
**It doesn’t matter what your skin color is, it matters how strong your will is.
**

PR I strongly disagree. There is more to be a black male than I can ever write here. I have an unusually strong will and a gift a gab therefore I was able to get into college on scholarship and graduate. But it is extremely hard being a black man. And you will never understand or be able to draw a parallel. You may be able to sympathize and imagine. But believe me it is not easy as you make it sound. But I do agree this month is a treat for all because it is education for all.

well said Nathan.

One of my best friends is a 40+ yr old African American Male. He is honest, drug free, drinks very little, and is generally thought of as a good guy. During the bust after the .com bubble, He took work as a bouncer in a bar, and is now a chauffeur…

The only reason I bring him up, is that he never has said anything even remotely negative about his job search, yet I have seen caucasian men with less to offer get the better jobs. I have helped him redo his resume so it has a very professional look, he has purchased the uniform to interview (nice conservative suit), and he carries it off well.

If it were me out there, looking for the same jobs, I really think I would have a better chance of getting them. And that is only based on his skin color, I do not have any more education than he…

Rev

DDD-

I can respect that man. I’m not “black” and you are right I’ll never know. But that’s how I personally feel at least. Your skin color means nothing to me - it’s your “inside” that I look at.

This thread has really turned out well. Let’s keep it up ya’ll!