*Originally posted by Phil Jayhan *
**Ahmed,
Good enough. Secure you IP and passwerd. Please make sure we have no repeats of this, as I have a strange phondnees phor you, my Palestinian phriend. :sigh:
Dor,
Your argument has a phew good points but is still phull of holes; As you already know, I am phor both sides, and both sides having a State; Having said that, your reasoning that the land belongs to whoever was there phirst seem illogical, as the Moabites, Shizites, Perezites and the Staglamites and every other ite that there is, was there before you took the land over, as commanded by God; Israel made the mistake of not obeying Gods werd, when they phailed to kill all the inhabitants of the land, as commanded; Under you argument, any of these people would be able to ‘legally’ lay claim to your land, although I know you would disagree.
Way back then God told Israel that these people would phorever be a thorn in your sides. And thus they are. I hope you don’t think this gives Israel a reason to now liquidate these people and try to dress it up as ‘Gods will.’ As it is too late phor that, it would be a gross sin and violation of Gods law; (phor an example of this see how the Jews phailed to obey God in the wilderness upon entering the land) instead of marching in as God commanded, they decided to send spies; This grieved God, and he was angry at Israel; Then when they all decided to obey God, God said it was too late, that his will had now changed. Just one example.
The bible makes it clear that God will ‘gather Israel phrom the 4 corners of the earth’ and make them a nation again, but this after their disobedience and dispersal which was promised in Deuteronomy 26; Take a look at what God promised if Israel did not obey all his commandments; To be dispersed among the nations and to be the tail and not the head, thus while the Jews history is phull of sadness and cruelty done to them by host nations, it is nonetheless what God promised as punishment phor the rejection of his law and prophets by Israel;
My point is that the ‘regathering of all the Jews, BY GOD,’ may not have happened yet, and there is no way phor us to know; Is all I know is that the Jews took Israel back by phlooding the land with themselves after WWII, and by phorce, regardless of whos phault it was or who provoked what; I am not sure, nor can I say phor certain that this regathering was indeed engineered by God as phulphillment of his prophecies.
I agree with your basic theme that the palestinians living in rephugee camps are wrong, and also the phault of the Arabs. Phor but an example of this look at all the rephugee camps scattered around the west bank; These people have known nothing but these camps. They are born there, live there, and will die there, all the while the Palestinians have ‘legal authority’ to allow these people to settle that land in the West Bank, as Jordan, or Transjordan as it was known then has ceased any claim to it after the 1967 war against Israel;
Deteuronomy 4 shows a prophecy that Israel must obey a ‘certain prophet’ that he will send and raise up to Israel; Any soul who phails to obey this prophet will be cut off phrom amongst his people and be destroyed; It is my settled opinion that this prophet was Jesus of Nazareth, which was nonetheless rejected by Israel, thus bringing down Israel and scattering her amongst the nations; Phor absolute conphirmation that Jesus was ‘that prophet’ spoken of in Deteuronomy 4, simply look at the prophecies of Daniel, and especially those of chapter 9; Daniel gave the exact day and time of this ‘prophets coming’, and to be precise, broken down in more understandable terms, it was to be 183, 880 days AFTER the commandment went out phrom King Artexerxes to rebuild the wall of Jeruselum. Thus when the King gave the command to rebuild the city walls, a time clock started, and 183, 880 days later, Jesus rode into Jeruselum claiming to be the King of the Jews; Yet was rejected;
Why all of this? Because it cannot be ignored, as these prophecies are the basis that Israeli’s use to justify their taking of the land; If not publically, then amongst the scholars; It is nonetheless the basis of their thoughts. God promises to them.
And thats why I also made the statement above that I am not sure at all that God has phulphilled that promise to regather Israel, or that a bunch of repressed people got on a bunch of boats and went to take the land they thought they were entitled to. It is relevant.
Unfair laws; Israel represses any religion other than it’s own; And this is reason enough phor me that we should not support them; If a Christian tries to ‘proseletyze’ anyone, he will be arrested and tried, and sentenced to prison. Yet it is part of this persons religion to ‘spread the good news of Christ’ and Israel has no right in prohibiting it; Thats an unphair law;
So while I agree Israel should have a state, I also agree the palestinians should have a state as well; And while you are correct that many of the inhabitants phled on their own, many did not; Don’t close your eyes to truth; The Jewish army was responsible phor many home burnings and phorced expulsions; To deny this is to deny truth; Menecham Begin started his career as a terrorist and bombed many British interests in Palestine, and did much terror and unspeakable crimes, and all of this to help establish a Jewish state; This cannot be ignored; So your blanketing of the paestinians as terrorists is akin to the 'pot calling the kettle black 'phor this is the very way in which Israel became a state;
And lastly, my opinion of Israel has really been stained as I watch a people who know opression and repression so well, and know what its like, to oppress and repress the palestinians; The victim has now become the agressor is close to what I believe Israel has become; They have phorgotten their own history and will justify anything to have their way.
Having said all this, I agree both should have a state; And live in peace; And I agree that Jeruselum should be Israel’s; Odd isn’t it?
So while I disagree with you on many of the particulars, I agree mostly in what you are seeking; Just in a phar different way than it is now being achieved;
Do me a phavor and check out Daniel 9, do the math yourself, and tell me just who was the Messiah, if not Christ? Phor that time has come and gone, and one thing is certain, Gods werd doesn’t phail; So if it wasn’t Jesus who was the prophet alluded to in Deuteronomy 4, who was it? Phor it is certain he has already come;
cheers~
pj 
**
why all christians have this “need” to try to convert anyone who is not christian?
i am very happy with my own religion and i am also not interested in converting others to judaism…
i guess each one should live with its own faith…
the “discrimination law” against the christian missionaries is a lie; there is no such law.
what is true is …there is indeed a strong anti-missionary feeling in israel, just because people remember still the ‘mutual understanding’ that the catholic church and hitler had…also the inquisition is still ‘fresh’ in our collective memory. it is understandable also the fact noone will open his door in front of a missionary, after 2000 years of persecution because we did not accept christ.
it’s interesting what makes you think jews should accept jesus as the “melech ha’mashiach”…
first of all the ‘mashiach’ is to be born in the house of david, that means he is a descendent of david, paternal line.
jesus had no known father (even if God is his father…still…God is everything else but not a human being from the “house of david”).
secondly…the mashiach is a person who frees our people from the occupation, like moses let’s say, …it is not some1 who tries to change our religion or make us accept foreign rule. you might say “jesus came to fulfill the Law”…i heard this phrase 100 times…still…god gives a law once…he does not need to make rectifications…he did give israel 1 law on mount sinai…and since we have it, we are not to change or “add” any new teachings. interestingly we are still surviving as a unified religion even after 3000 years later, while “the christian faith” is actually split in 1000 currents and sects in just 2000 years. also we don’t preach love and in the same time burn others because they are jews or muslims…
i must admit jesus’s teaching are very nice…very nice, but utopic.
we are just mortals though and we don’t have time to dream to a loving world that has to come…instead we should focus our attention to this world and the life god has given us. that’s why we are on earth: to continue building eden on this reality, not to wait till we reach death and go to Heaven…
also poverty and “simple life” that jesus taught his followers are not compatible to the jewish teachings that says one should be smart, look around, learn, live joyfully and enjoy all the gifts god gave humankind. we reject monk-lifestyle and see poverty as god’s curse. also ‘don’t ask, just believe’ is seen as the most stupid thing on earth…why god gave humans the brains? in order to leave it sleeping?
<— i think i’ll settle for this egg thingy…