ROFLMAO!! :beam:
I’m still laughing at this :beam:
I saw this thread too late sorry I missed it, it sounds good… the battle rages. I read some of the posts going back a few pages, but am going to jump right in anyway. It is so funny to see how people think, … especially you Phil, you are taking on the Jewish battle all by your self for the most part. Don’t get rattled dude, Brainwashing is a common tool used to get people to follow along quietly.
I look at the Israeli, Palestinian issues a little differently, I look at it from a unique American standpoint. Follow my story for a bit.
Let say your living quietly minding you own business and a group of people come in and occupy some of the land you are living in. Not really a big issue if you have a lot of it, but they just keep coming, and pretty soon you are facing a gun barrel and being forced to live on a Reservation… Ok. The Reservation sucks, poverty, unemployment, crime…
Some would call it a hell- hole, but it’s your hell -hole. Now all of a sudden, the strange people want to occupy your hell-hole…. What do you do?
Now of course my little story is a really cheap and basic idea of what is going on, but it is what it is. Minus the fluff.
Talk only goes so far. Diplomacy has been going on in the Middle East before some of you were born, so you have no idea what lengths were taken to avoid clashing.
The native Americans fought the settlers any chance they got, had they had explosive vest they would have used them as well. Do we blame the Indians for protecting their lands…? Then why should we blame the Palestinians? Innocent people dying is a bad thing, but we only seem to hear about the innocent Israeli’s… (The brainwash). I see TV
As well as the rest of you… But what I see is the Palestinians throwing rocks, and the Soldiers shooting Bullets. Of course the Palestinians have guns, but the Israeli’s have more. Hey Phil, If I supply a man with weapons so he can move into your livingroom and take control of your house, then not only are you fighting that man… Your fight is with me as well. You build an empire at gun point….You suffer at gun point.
But what do I know I am an uneducated kid from harlem.
Peace
While i totally agree with you when it comes to America’s situation, the facts in the Middle East are quite different.
Who are the Indians of the Holy Land, if not the jews?
According to history, not the palestinians, but these ‘foreign colonists’ were the aborigenees there, long before there was an arab population claiming that land.
I am sure you agree with the aborigenee’s right to fight their conquerers, be it romans, arabs, or british. After all, romans, arabs or british are the real settlers there, right?
It’s the pecking order again… I was here first… you were here first, it belongs to me, no it belongs to me… this is good. But even more simple, I am living here, you can see that I am living here, why are you killing me?
The land belongs to all, not just one. Even the Isreali’s understand that, I mean a man born and raised in the United States, in the State of New York, in the Town of Brooklyn, has the right to build a home in the occupied territories.
Peaceful co-habitation would be great but man kind isn’t that way, all I am saying is if you use a gun you face the gun.
I personaly should am for a Russian Style of Peace keeping…
Let Russia get most of it nukes online, then send one diplomat with a really loud speaker to the conflict areas…
“If you dont stop fighting we will officialy declare this a nuke testing ground… by the way, the 500 megaton nukes just got online, thought you’d like to know… Have fun!”
Then once we do make peace once a week there is going to be “love thy brother day” Its a day where everyone loves eachother… and we are going to have vans riding around with armed men, execting on the spot people who arent ‘loving thy brother’
Thats just my point of view…
:sure:
see phil that is the essentials of what I am saying…
I am in agree-ment with you… let them fight it out… it’s their problem, they will fix it. It is everyone else who is taking sides on this issue that pisses me off, they strut out the scholars to explain this and that and totally over look the basics. hell given enough time, a scholar will convince you that an elephant will pass through the eye of a needle.
As far as the Native Americans go… you are right to say they are not intitled to all of this country. In fact that was exactly thier belief… “no one owns the land, we all live as one with Mother Earth”. Just don’t set up camp inside my Tee- Pee
peace
This is a really great topic and I would like to put my two cents as well.
As far as claiming the land in Isreal and who was there first, I think religious texts are pretty useless. I suggest an anthropoligical test, lets find the oldest human remains in that region and then do a DNA sampling of the the palestiens and the jews, who ever has the oldest DNA gets to keep the land.
Jesus has entered this discussion numerous times, which I think is kinda wierd becuase there is no mention of other important religious figures in the Jewish and Islamic religions. I have just read a good book “Ishmael” by I think Daniel Quinn. In this book he gives some other ideas about the origin of biblical stories, cain and able, the creation story. Basically it gets down to being part of a global community, kind of like that hippie Jesus. I am not advocating christianity, just hippie ideals.
I think a real mistake was made was after WWII when the leaders decided to carve up a piece of land and send the Jews there. I know there was Jews in Israel before then but this was a massive migration. I believe what should have been done was give the Jews, Wyoming, or Montana, after all the Mormons have their own state.
Land claims are tough for me to make sense of, yes there is mosques built over old synagoges, or temple. And there is also Jewish homes built over palenstein settlements. I think the difference is a couple hundred years or even a couple of thousand. Would you destroy a historically mosque to put a temple back over it again?
Suicide bombings, are a sad condition for both sides. I know I see it differently than most Americans. To me suicide bombing is the poor man’s tank, or gernade launcher. Palenstinians will get no sympathy from the US when they see these “terroristic acts.” I think the difference here is that Isreal has a standing army. Because they fight by our rules we respect them. If you have an army I believe killing is legitimized by the government because it is the army’s job to kill. The army may also kill civilians but that is what is called collateral damage, in the end the army is just fighting the enemy.
I apologize in advance if I misspelled any words, or misrepsented a religion or ethnicity.
The way I see it,
Is both of them should live in peace… no one is going to move out. If the palestenians one day prove that they where there first, are the Jews just going to turn around and leave? I dont think so.
They should have sepearate states and learn to live together… its hard to do, but they might as well start now…
:-\ And I hope no one is trying to justefy what the white man did to the American Indians…
No Phil was not justifying the filching of America from the Indians, I think he was being more of a realist in saying that the world is a dangorous place, and a lot of bad things go on. I think that realism is a good way to go in dealing with the Middle East. Trying to Argue that topic from a religious standpoint is a losing battle, because the occupation of land is anything but religious, get to the basics… I use to argue the Middle East issue from a religious pedistol
and would start off with “Jewish: a Religion or a Race, pick one but decide.” Whipper made a good point…
“I think a real mistake was made was after WWII when the leaders decided to carve up a piece of land and send the Jews there. I know there was Jews in Israel before then but this was a massive migration. I believe what should have been done was give the Jews, Wyoming, or Montana, after all the Mormons have their own state.”
If you look at images and crowd shots coming out of Isreal, you will see that the people are mixed in color, you have some really dark Jewish people, and some really light Jewish people. Not too hard to figure out who family has been living there for longer that 50 years.. these jews have been living amoungst the Palistinians in peace /semi peace for generations, but the Europeans showed up and the hostilities began... funny how every time the europeans show up all hell breaks loose..
Anyway the religious view was a loosing argument, because then someone always starts in with the land belongs to the jews bla bla bla… then the scholars show up with thier dates and statistics and psycho babble the topic until you start agreeing with them about growing flowers on the moon. When the _root of the issue is I am living here now don’t take my home by force or there is going to be trouble.
this is a basic human response. and just becaus I don’t use every inch of the property I have, doesn’t mean you can build in my backyard I may want to plant a garden later.
Maybe…
i don´t agree with that statemnet of yours, gp:
…funny how every time the europeans show up all hell breaks loose…
as countries with several neighbors, in a variety of cultures,the europeans are far more advanced in diplomatics than USA.
USA diplomacy is like that: It´s our way, or no way.
I really love america, but like everything america has it´s down side, that IMHO is the prepotence, arrogance and selfishnes in the international politics.
I´ll not discredit the good things america has done in the past, but i´ll not forge the bad ones too. Coz if you forget a mistake, you´ll probably repeat it again and again.
OOOppps, you must be European, sorry didn’t mean to upset you.
Let me set this up by saying I am a Native American, so this way you can get an insight to where I am coming from.
I am no fan of American Policies or Politics, That is another topic altogether, but I am an American, I wore a uniform for this country…I showed up , unlike a lot of people.
Let us not forget that america is made up of Europeans, divided and confused, they still want to call them-selves Irish/American, Anglo or what ever, I mean the division goes right down to the politics, democrat, republican… and the anger between the two is unreal for a government, looking down thier noses at each other, so much so that it filters into the streets down to you and me… what a shinning example…
As far as europeans…from an Native stand point Europeans do cause and have caused havock were ever they went, just look at any history book, from any country you’ll see it. I am not or can’t give you stats and dates I am no schollar, I flunk out of history class, but he carribean is filled with colonies of european countries gotten or taken by force… this is fine it’s the way the wolrd is… just don’t go around thinking one nation is better than any other nation just because a past isn’t as bloody as another, deal with it… own it.
If your nations history is founded on Genocide, Slavery, Conquest, Pilfery, murder and mayhem…deal with it. Don’t say because it was so long ago it doesn’t matter.
If you are bennifiting from what was done in the past…you are just as guilty… That encompasses alot of stuff don’t it… 
this forum needs spell check I bet I spelled half of that wrong.
hehe… i´m not european gp… i´m south-american. Brazillian to be more precise 
And i don´t think europe is better than america. But i do think they´re more concerned with the rest of the world than USA is.
You´re right to say that europe (England and France mostly) had done inumerous blood shares and violent acts in the past, and that´s why they are more civilized and concious than america. They have learned from theyr own mistakes.
Have you seen any country (other than Russia) force it´s way so bad upon another country in the past 50 years, like US is doing?
if you do not know what i´m talking about, check this thread.
Cheers
Nice thread…
I think most Americans know that thier country is into some horrible messes around the globe, they may not know exactly what , but they know Uncle Sam is no saint. The President probablly didn’t get that letter and if he did, he would have said something like" and the point was…?"
It’s all about the greed, Democracy is greed no doubt, and fueled by the basic human nature, democrcy is out of control… by the way
How many tree’s do you guys have left down there?.. that’s not funny I 'm sorry… no I am no fan of the U.S policies… but rest assured Uncle Sam won’t be on top for long… I just hope when the time comes that no one wants to build a house in my back yard cause we are going to fight…
Ralph
*Originally posted by gpdesigner *
**
"If you look at images and crowd shots coming out of Isreal, you will see that the people are mixed in color, you have some really dark Jewish people, and some really light Jewish people. Not too hard to figure out who family has been living there for longer that 50 years… "
You cannot say who lived for how long in a country just by looking at the color of his/her skin.
Palestinians have really dark skinned guys, but also have blond blue-eyed ones too.
“Anyway the religious view was a loosing argument, because then someone always starts in with the land belongs to the jews bla bla bla…”
I do not agree that is pure bla bla bla. In fact archeology demonstrates scientifically who was where first… You don’t need to be religious to accept scientific proof. BUT THIS IS NOT THE POINT.
I do not think that looking back will settle the dispute.
IF THERE IS A MOSK IN JERUSALEM, IT SHOULD BE A SYNAGOGUE IN MECCA TOO.
I think pragmatism should take precedence over idealism in both population’s cases. Otherways there will be noone left alive to tell the story there.
Unfortunately jews and arabs are cousins, so they inherit the same behaviour from Abraham. He did not make compromises, so they don’t too, following his example.
I hope someone will close this thread (if it is possible). Ideas expressed in here become recycled.
Be happy, tomorrow will be worse!
**
Jazz I am surprised at you… bold typing means you are a little miffed…why?
for someone who has only 2 posts you sure are into this whole forum thing.
come on who are you really?
use your real screen name don’t be shy…
Now think about this, a person clearly as educated as your self should know that a blonde hair blue eyed palistinian is not full blooded Palistinian. There was some hanky panky going on somewhere…
ok I’ll stop on this thread you win… the palistinians are evil I want to be jewish… they have good eats.
Ralph
Indeed i am into forums. Kirupa’s is a new one.
A bird told me something is going on here, so I checked it out.
I read all the posts.
Are the Palistinian evil?
Kali
And do you believe in full blooded? Hitler did that too.
i can´t believe mine and rev´s posts were erased…
They were moved to a more intelectual thread… I saw that yesturday.
**** I said I wasn’t going to reply on this thread anymore, ok I’ll stop now
Raplh
Guig0 - all of your threads related to the trees/forests are in their own thread in Ordered.
Cheers!
Kirupa :rd:
