Nobody can answer the “what came first” question without saying
<something> just was.
There was a beginning. The question is was it Him.
so I think the debunking of evolution because its not feasible for something to come from nothing cant come from anyone who believes there was a time with no time (is that possible) where there existed someone whos there just because hes always there and at some point in time (again, during this time of no time?) there existed an instance where there was time and life is created - out of nothing so to speak, just because he said so. No wait, Im sorry, man was made out of dirt, correct? Thats something. And dirt didnt exist before life in evolution theorists eyes… or did it?
*Originally posted by senocular *
**so I think the debunking of evolution because its not feasible for something to come from nothing cant come from anyone who believes there was a time with no time (is that possible) where there existed someone whos there just because hes always there and at some point in time (again, during this time of no time?) there existed an instance where there was time and life is created - out of nothing so to speak, just because he said so. No wait, Im sorry, man was made out of dirt, correct? Thats something. And dirt didnt exist before life in evolution theorists eyes… or did it? **
wow, that was hard reading :red: but let me throw in a new rachet, don’t think of He as he. He is not a man working a little tool shed creating people. I think of Him more like an energy source. With that think back to basic electricity principles. Electricity has no beginning and no end. In oder to have electricity you have to have a completed circut, i.e. a circle. There is no beginning and no end, yet it can “create” things such as light or heat or be converted to mechanical energy to move things.
hey! i like the energy source thing…
*Originally posted by blindlizard *
**There is no beginning and no end, **
well, something out of something is not the same as something out of nothing.
A “being” in a timeless, static state is something.
I thought evolution claimed that matter and energy have always existed like that, too. Not really nothing, just a very boring something.
Sen, do you believe in “original nothing”, or an original matter/energy state?
blindlizard-you make a lame attempt to refute my specific examples. OK so you don’t agree with vaccines. my point was bigger than that. MILLIONS and MILLIONS of humans are alive today due to modern medicine. this medicine was researched and developed using SCIENCE, not religion.
and while you question the merit of modern conveniences, no doubt you take full advantage of them (last time I checked, the Amish don’t use online forums) so I’ll take those points as just being disingenuis on your part.
wow calm down, I was just playing devils advocate (pun intended). 
Let me ask you this: How did humans survive before the invention of doctors?
I wasn’t trying to get you all riled up, I am just point out that we had all we needed before scientists invented things like cars and electricity. Yes, I do enjoy modern conveniences but that doesn’t mean that science has given me more than God. Like I said before God is science and science is God.
*Originally posted by snorkyfrog2 *
**Ah, good ol electricity. discovered and applied by religion…er, no wait, that was SCIENCE that did that!
You assume that because some human “discovered” the priciples of power load and ground that it was not created by God. Let me tell you a story I remember from Sunday school:
There is a small town where a very relgious woman lives. One day it starts to rain, and it rains, and it rains, for days and days. It begins to flood. The town’s people work together to evacuate the town. They knock on the woman’s door asking her to come with them. She says, “I don’t need your help, God will save me”. So the people leave. The next day the water is at the womans roof where she is waiting for God. A boat comes by to rescue her. She sends them away saying “I don’t need your help, God will save me”. The boat leaves and the woman drowns. She goes to heaven and walks up to God and says, “I have done everything you have asked of me, why didn’t you save me from that flood?” God responds, “Who do you think sent the boat?”
I love that one. its a classic 
on dirt :
dirt contains organic matter. All known life today requires organic matter to live. (Viruses and enzymes are not considered life, but even viruses require organic matter to ‘survive’).
The current view is that amino acids, or other organic matter, were formed somehow without being the byproduct of an organism. Then, out of that material, an inbetween-life-form that was much simpler than a bacterium could survive on that, and also reproduce to create further organic matter.
I think…
religion is perfectly content to continue to support status quo concepts like “the earth is flat” while science prefers to explore and find out the truth. later, religion usually comes around.
Why would religion care if the world is round or flat? Do that help you to live a better life and help you create a better life for others?
*Originally posted by clownstaples *
**Sen, do you believe in “original nothing”, or an original matter/energy state? **
I do not believe that which I do not understand 
I really don’t know, and I try not to think about it. But I can tell you this much, I denounced my religion because I didn’t like the control it had over my life - telling me who I am and who I’m to serve, and moreso, how Im supposed to force my beliefs onto others because what we believe is “right” and people needed to see that for themselves (albeit not in a forceful manner). I don’t fully believe anything Im told. I can react based on that knowledge and assume its validity to a degree, but there is little absolution coming from me - even from that which I can see and hear with my own eyes and ears. Its all interpretation. Everything everyone thinks they know is based on some form of interpretation in one way or another whether it be from something that was told to them or something they’ve discovered on their own. When it comes to the past or the origin of life, I try not to think about it. Mostly because I don’t believe it concerns me. What concerns me more is what is to happen to me in this life, or even what happens after it. Religions have consolation in their belief in the afterlife. Atheists (me) have nothing. With that I focus more on my current life - my current time - and try not to ponder too much about that which was before it, or even after it. Its in those times, before and after that which is truely ‘known’ when people assert their ignorance, no matter what degree of faith they have to back it up. We don’t know what will happen, only think we know - or think we know that we know. But what do you know other than that which has been interpreted? Either through a priest, King James or your own experiences. What is there to confirm there validity? I have not experienced the original nothing or any indication that god was the beginning, or if it was just matter. The best I have now is interpretations Ive heard of or read by those who think that they do know (or have an educated guess concerning it). For something I try not to dwell on, it goes a very small way in my own beliefs.
… though, if I had to choose, Id say… [jeopardy music] orig matter/energy?
good choice! the daily double!
you sound like more of an agnostic than an atheist. An atheist is sure there is no god, an agnostic says it doesnt make a differece.
you have hit on one of the facts of life though. ALL information, from the history of egypt to what color your toothbrush is, comes to you through interpretation. There’s no way around it. Even if you went to a science fair and plugged some project into your head that could directly connect to your brain and tell you what your voice sounds like, it would be usesless. The next day, you would only have a secondhand version of that information - * interpreted * by your own memory and garbled to fit your preconceived thoughts and stereotypes.
if were going to start not trusting things, the ** first** thing we should stop trusting is ourselves.
do you mind if i ask what religion you grew up with?
I totally hear what you are saying senocular, people have done some bad things in the name of religion. I have fought with myself about subscribing to any particular denomination of religion. I have created in my own mind from my own experiences what I believe. All I wish for people is for them to realize that there is a greater power. Call it what you want, God, Allah, Science, Common Sense. I only get upset when people tell me “there is no God because x y and z proves it and you are an idiot for beliving otherwise”. I find there is much more proof that God must exists than proof saying otherwise.
if were going to start not trusting things, the first thing we should stop trusting is ourselves.
Beautiful! :pope:
what does a pope-hat *smiley *mean again?
you know, I was raised Catholic and I have no idea.
i meant smiley
I grew up in an aethist family though moved lived near a non-denominational christian church when I was about 7 (I did ask someone there about the denomination and they said if anything, closest to protestant). I spent a lot of time there, learning, reading the bible - all that stuff. It was a good direction for me growing up. I knew nothing and didnt assume otherwise. I did what I was told and believed what my elders (and wisers) told me. The more I learned, the more I questioned and the more proactive we became in our efforts to become “good christians serving the lord” the less I found myself content with my position there. Does god exist? I have no reason to believe so other than the fact that other people do - and from what? Other people and a book? - written by other people? Some people believe that there is a civilization living in the center of the earth too. I dont necessarily believe that either, though I cant completely reject its possibility. Nothing is certain, but it is my current belief that there isnt a god in the sense that most people think there is. Id lean more to the evolutionst way of thinking. Does that mean there is no higher power? Well I dont want to say no, but if there is, its either a human controlled institution (govmnt?) or maybe … an [gasp] alien. There are theorists who believe we come from an alien race. I believe that more than I believe there is a god, but I dont necessarily believe it either.
If I had to be narrow, Id say this. matter and energy always existed. Gravity is the cause for all action in the universe. Life is a result of coincidence when certain elements/compounds just happen to come together in the right time and place to develop the beginnings of what can eventually evolve into what we are today. And, with that being the case, whos to say that this didnt happen a long long time ago in a galaxy far far away who felt lonely in the world and wanted to spread their seed (isnt that part of the definition of life) and so decided to do so, one place being earth? Speculation.
blindlizard - God distinguishes in the creation account on those days that each were made separately. And He specified where they were made from. Not exact specifics I know…but it said from the earth not from the animals He already created.
Sen- I thought I had left out a part and it just now struck me.
“Have you ever seen God, have you ever seen Him? I’ve seen the effects of the wind, but I’ve never seen the wind…there’s a mystery to it.”
That’s what I meant sorry about that.
I like it because it explains in a personal way how things have happened to others around me and myself.
I do like how you explained faith.
Is faith to be fully understood, not while we are confined to this world. You are right on point there - we can begin to understand God and how He works, if we would only open our hearts. He understands that we cannot fully grasp, so He sent something that we could relate to. Something that was living…not something that was inanimate and unmoving.
His Son.
Good posts ya’ll!
*Originally posted by senocular *
…Nothing is certain, but it is my current belief that there is a god in the sense that most people think there is. … … There are theorists who believe we come from an alien race. I believe that more than I believe there is a god, but I dont necessarily believe it either. …
well if you believe in god youre not an atheist, but lets not dwell on terminology.
your experience sounds a bit like mine, only i started in a traditional protestant church, and we switched to a non-denominational church like yours about half-my-life ago. I am just recently realizing that I believe most of what I believe because of other people, and I am coming to grips with whether that is a valid reason to believe it.
Its a harsh truth that the only alternative is to strictly claim to know absolutely nothing, but you are right. ‘Belief’ itself is a claim that logic is insufficient. If ya stick with logic, you know zilch.
lol typo is NOT a god :crazy: