I don’t know much about the situation over there but i believe that it was only Chechen seperatists who had done this, probalby not supported by the
[size=2]Mujahideen.[/size]
And it goes on, but the Chechens have bigger number of casualties.
Thats completle irrelevant! The Germans had more casulaties in WW2 than the Americans, does that make the Americans evil?
i believe that they are not the bad ones.
Oh okay thats bullet-proof reasoning…
You over-simplify, and over-generalize way too much. What Chechens arent evil? The regular people, sure why not, I agree, I might even agree that the Freedom Fighters arent evil, but evein the Freedom fighters have to be broken up, because there are diffrent factions, Most notably under Shamil Baslayev and the Former Chechen President. Baslayev, is where I draw the line, he is reponsible for attacks on unarmed civilian targets aswell as the school incident, that man has to be brought to justice.
Same can be said about the Russian Forces, some Generals are just doing their jobs much like many of the Freedom fighters, but there are some like Baslayev who are evil and should be tried.
I heard 300,000 dead, out of those, how many were civilians? I also heard 42,000 were children…
Yes, i agree.
I heard 300,000 dead, out of those, how many were civilians? I also heard 42,000 were children…
Again, irrelevant…
2 000 000 german civilians, during Allied Bombings… US civilian dead? under 10?
*Plus I dont know where you got your sources, according to Globalsecurity.org the casualties of checheneya is 25 000, not the whooping 300 000. Let me see your source. *
Exactly RB, you cannot judge right from wrong based on who has lost more people or who attacked who first… I really have little doubt that the Russian government may have done horrible things to Chechnya. I would probably hate to be Chechnyian and part of Russia. However, that does not give anyone the right to intentionally target civillians.
If some American government agency came into my house right now, raped my wife and killed my kids in front of me, would I be in the right to blow up my neighbors house one by one until the government did something I demaded like paid me restitution? No, I would need to go to court and sue that agency for the crimes it committed. If that didn’t seem to be a workable option, I could then band together with my neighbors to fight the government (violently) to get my way. When I say fight the government I mean physically fight the parts of government that are ment to fight…military, police, etc. I could even start a blockade of government trade in my neighborhood…not allow the government to do business here (much like the French blockade during the war for American independence).
You see there are ways to “war” with governments, killing innocent civillians in an attempt to scare that government into something that benefits you is not one of them.
Yes it is true that having more casualties on your side doesn’t make you the good guy or the victim.
I forgot where i read 300,000 and apoligize for not providing a source for it, however i think i read it somewhere about some people trying to justify the Beslan massacre. I wish its a lie and its 25,000 like you said.
I see the Chechens as the good ones, because i read that a good number of civilian casualties happened because of war crimes done by the Russians, anyway, they are Muslim and they are fighting for liberation.
Chech this out :
Chechen Separatists Say “Third Force” Behind Terrorist Attacks
Peace
Well it cant be 300 000, because even Rebels claim the casualties are only 60 000, Its still alot, but even the Rebels dont stretch it that far.
I see the Chechens as the good ones, because i read that a good number of civilian casualties happened because of war crimes done by the Russians, anyway, they are Muslim and they are fighting for liberation.
You’re over gerneralizing again, you have to seperate the first Chechen war from the second. The first one they where truly fighting for independance, during the second war they got greedy, and under Baslayev they where stagining violent attacks in nearby provinces that did not belong to them at all, and whos population supports Russia. So during the second war they where not fighting for liberation, and now they are fighting a defensive war in Chechneya.
And also you cant be ignorant about the crimes commited by Chechens, you can’t just look the otherway and only blame ther Russians, the second war they brought on themselves, and there is no-one else to blame. You have to be aware of both sides atrocities otherwise your opinion is irrelevant.
And what does being Muslim have to do with anything?
Chech this out :
Chechen Separatists Say “Third Force” Behind Terrorist Attacks
Peace
Interesting, but he has nothing to back his claim, and its unfounded, especialy since Basayev already took responsibility.
BBC NEWS | Europe | Chechen rebel claims Beslan siege **
“Chechen warlord Shamil Basayev has said he organised the Russian school siege in which at least 320 hostages were killed, many of them children”.**
You’re over gerneralizing again, you have to seperate the first Chechen war from the second. The first one they where truly fighting for independance, during the second war they got greedy, and under Baslayev they where stagining violent attacks in nearby provinces that did not belong to them at all, and whos population supports Russia. So during the second war they where not fighting for liberation, and now they are fighting a defensive war in Chechneya.
And also you cant be ignorant about the crimes commited by Chechens, you can’t just look the otherway and only blame ther Russians, the second war they brought on themselves, and there is no-one else to blame. You have to be aware of both sides atrocities otherwise your opinion is irrelevant.
I agree, remember, i don’t know much, your clearing things up for me.
And what does being Muslim have to do with anything?
Well, if you are Muslim and your fighting a war then you are good, because Muslims are supposed to only go to war for a just cause, and not harm the innocent. Those who were behind the Beslan school siege were “fake-Muslims”.
Interesting, but he has nothing to back his claim, and its unfounded, especialy since Basayev already took responsibility.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3664864.stm
“Chechen warlord Shamil Basayev has said he organised the Russian school siege in which at least 320 hostages were killed, many of them children”.
Nevermind then.
Well, if you are Muslim and your fighting a war then you are good, because Muslims are supposed to only go to war for a just cause, and not harm the innocent. Those who were behind the Beslan school siege were “fake-Muslims”.
We are getting side-tracked here, but its an interesting topic, so are you saying that Muslims arent capable of going to war for a bad cause?
Or commiting atrocities? Murderous acts?
Well, a Muslim is someone who follows Islam, if you commit attrocities, you don’t follow Islam, because Islam condems it.
Ofcourse, there are Muslims who do so, but i classify them as “fake-Muslims” or “a person who has a Muslim background”, because if they committ attrocities, they obviously aren’t following Islam.
For example, the hostage-takers in Beslan, Allah will send them all to hell with Putin.
[ot]
nice avatar slug! Is that an Ak variant?
[/ot]
Well by that standard can’t you say no relgious person has ever commited a crime? Because obviously almost all religions forbid murder and crime and those who break it are just “fake-(religion)” ?
Ak-47 fo sho! :p:
Russian Beer,
You have to distinguish between the teachings and how much an individual follows.
what happened man there was a heated discussion goin on…
you guyz are politics fanatics.(if that even makes sense)
well hope to see more of this.
i enjoy reading most of these kinds of posts
It seems that the people in this forum are civilized, compared to other forums, this one is heaven, i commend you guys.
I think most the trouble makers have weeded themselves out…
Anyway back to the discussion about Muslims not being able to commit attocities… If that is the case, why do many of the leaders of Islam not only not condem when things like this happen, but they say how it is justified. Here is a report of one in Britain saying targeting children is ok. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/09/05/wosse705.xml Granted it says he is the leader of an extremist sect, but I am not clear of the difference. I mean no disrespect to any Muslim, but I as an American Christian who tries to stay informed on world events have not had anyone explain the difference.
What leaders are you talking about? And why should they condem it? They have nothing to do with the attrocities that some “fake Muslims” do.
The cleric who justified the Beslan school siege is corrupt, you will find a lot of corrupt clerics around, if you go to a Islamic forum, you will see how they say that he is corrupt and he is giving Islam a bad name.
Peace
Why should they condem it??? because it is herendous!! And because American Chirstians like me think that by only hearing from the “corrupt” clerics, the Muslim religion must endorse it.
So BlindLizard if some guy who is a fake-Christian goes and burns a Mosque, do you have to condem it?
