No, if some random guy burns a mosque. But, if there are a string of crimes committed against Muslims by people claiming to be say Catholics, they I am sure the Catholic church would come out and condem that acts as not something sactioned by the church. With that I am sure that if a Catholic terrorist group did the Russian school thing, every Bishop and the Pope himself would come out to condem it. And, you would not see all kinds of Catholic leaders comming out saying how justified it was.
Now i see what you mean.
It might be that the U.S media doesn’t show it, remember 9/11? There was a lot of Muslim condemnation, even by the Palestinians, can you believe that? They are aware that the U.S supports Israel with weapons and money, but they still condemed the 9/11 attacks. Thousands marched in Iran, did the U.S media show it or no?
The London daily Al-Sharq Al-Awsat published an op-ed by the paper’s former editor Abd Al-Rahman Al-Rashed, titled “The Death of 300,000 People.” Here is a posting of it in the telegraph.
Palestine sactions young men and women going into Israel blowing up as many innocent people as possible. A small tear from Arifat doesn’t change that. I personally think the “outrage” of 9/11 by Palestine was a hope that we saw that they didn’t do it and take our wrath to them.
Yes, I saw the march in Iran too. Again, that was not the leaders of Islam saying it was and is wrong to use terrorisim…
Its true and sad. These people are betraying God, by killing civilians. Muslim leaders are just lazy, if they are too lazy enough to help the oppressed, then we cannot expect them to try to stop the killing of civilians.
Something needs to be done, these militants need to be told that nothing justifys killing innocent people.
Like i said, Islamic and Arab leaders seem to be on mars and left the corrupt Islamic clerics and Arab leaders here…
Its true and sad. These people are betraying God, by killing civilians. Muslim leaders are just lazy, if they are too lazy enough to help the oppressed, then we cannot expect them to try to stop the killing of civilians.
Something needs to be done, these militants need to be told that nothing justifies killing innocent people.
The problem is they don’t consider anyone innocent, not even babies. That thinking is just freaking crazy and sick. So first you have to make them respect and see that there ARE innocent people, but that won’t happen. They are truly “predjudice”. This kind of elitism is common in history, even America has just recently (in the last 50 years) begun to accept equal rights and only in the last 150 years we have outlawed slavery and givin African Americans human rights. Before that they had no rights, they could be beaten and murdered without puishment, you could even beat your wife and kids until you got bored or borke your hand and it was socially accepted. We are still comming out of those dark ages of predjudice, and we consider ourselves the “example” to the world. We need to be patient and continue practicing what we preach, and we need to be tolerant of nations who are still socially evolving. But, accepting attrocities is NOT tolerance it is neglect. Such as, If you herd your neighbor beating the crap out of his wife and kids, wouldn’t you call the cops? If you let it continue, you would likely feel terrible from guilt, because you could do something to help. Finding the ballance is the hard part, and it is something that we could be doing better.
We cannot “expect” other nations, especially the ones who still base their governments on religion and monarchy to see things as we do, it will take time. Eventually, the world will come around, but we can’t let things like the Russian School Crisis to continue, and we should seriously punish the people who propagate this mentality. Probably a million things wrong with what I just posted, feel free to tear it apart…
do you really think that anyone in their right mind would see the murder of 350+ children as something normal and casual? Hell no. Not even the most radical islamist. You’d have to be seriously mad to do something like that (is anyone doubting that those people in Beslan weren’t mad?). The question we have to ask ourselves is: WHY would they do something like that, what can trigger such atrocities. It doesn’t come out of nowhere. It’s not like the Russian Govt stole a candy from a Chechen and refused to give it back.
Having 1000 people packed in a room, drinking their urine as their sole source to quench thirst is inhumane. Why did they become inhumane? Russia’s war on Chechnya (and I use the singular form to describe BOTH wars, for a decade of war with 3 years of “peace” in between does not qualify imo as 2 different wars) is one of the reasons; the radicalisation of Islam resistance is another; the global war on terror waged on Islam (the amalgam was so easy that it is now in everybody’s head - you’re olive skin!! perhaps you’re a terrorist??) is again another.
The West has to stop closing their eyes on what Putin is doing to Chechnya, approx - 100k to 300k Chechen deaths (source Lemonde.fr) - yes, that wide a margin, because NO ONE is counting! Russia is on its way to a new form of dictatorship (that we’ve discussed already), it has to be stopped, but right now, peace in this region is being sacrified on the austel of ****ing hypercapitalism. What is happening in Chechnya right now is basically what happened in Afganistan 20 years ago, and I really do not want a new WTC catastrophy.
You do not blow up civillians because you are pissed of at Putin! I don’t care what brought them to this point. They have no regaurd for human life if they are willing to kill children to get their way. People like that must be hunted down and killed, not talked to to work a resolution. There is NO justification for killing children on purpose. I don’t care if Putin personally killed your whole family with you watching, take that up with Putin not 1000 kids in a school closest to you
Why did they become inhumane? Russia’s war on Chechnya (and I use the singular form to describe BOTH wars, for a decade of war with 3 years of “peace” in between does not qualify imo as 2 different wars)
Im sorry, thats just ignorant, I usualy agree with you and you’re arguments but this is just plain ignorant, to say that its exacly the same conflict even though they are waged for diffrent reasons just because you don’t think the peace was long enough is just ignorant.
You also cannot ignore one sides atrocity! And just let them slide! Saying that the chechens did because Russians made them do it is the most oblivious thing I’ve ever heard. Because I can easily say that whatever the Russians did to make them do it, the chechens did to make the Russians do it! And you know what? All of it is true, The Russian atrocities and the Chechen atrocities, now are we going to sit down and start arguing is slavery and beheadings better than hostage taking and suicide?
No one is inocent, no one… in a war like this everyone is guitly of something. The chechens terrorist or rebels are taking cover in sympathetic areas, and they know the Russians are going to level that place because of it, so now whos fault is it? The Rebels or Terrorist for taking cover there are fully knowledgable of what will happen? Or the Russians for pulling the trigger? It dosent matter, both are guitly!
If you break down the second war to the bones, the chechen started to wage a terrorist war in Drezden and terrorist attacks (and there was a clear connection between them), it was just a decision to wage a defensive war on Russian land where Russians would die or not. And any general worth his salt would rather wage war on the opponents ground, where his people die.
Everyone has to take responsibility, and saying “he made me so angry that I did it” is not an excuse in any court of law.
very well put RB. I wish I could have said it that well. Take out Russia and put in Israel and the same still holds true
ok, BL, whatever…
RB> Ok. Can you name me 2 different wars between two same nations (choose any time past the Anno Dominum) with a peace time in between of less than 3 years? I can’t. Hence that’s why I call it the same war. I never said it’s the same conflict (a conflict per say has the same CAUSE) I said it was the same WAR. And I’m not playing on words here, I carefully choose them when I write. It’s not that I don’t think the peace time was too short, but 1000 days is NOT peace time. (example: the 100 year war between france and england did not last 100 years - it actually lasted longer, something like 116 years if I recall correctly - but there were breaks in between of up to 10 years… it’s still the same war, but the CAUSE of the conflicts evolved with time).
I’m not ignoring one side’s atrocities, I condemn wars whereever they happen to be, but the latest political analysis show that if Russia does not stop, it’s going to be another Afganistan (perhaps then another WTC). The Chechens need and want dialogue. It’s the Russians refusing it. If Chechens stop, they die. If Russians stop, there’s peace. That’s all I’m saying. There’s a way to dialogue, but it’s not the direction events are going to.
RB> Ok. Can you name me 2 different wars between two same nations (choose any time past the Anno Dominum) with a peace time in between of less than 3 years? I can’t. Hence that’s why I call it the same war. I never said it’s the same conflict (a conflict per say has the same CAUSE) I said it was the same WAR. And I’m not playing on words here, I carefully choose them when I write. It’s not that I don’t think the peace time was too short, but 1000 days is NOT peace time. (example: the 100 year war between france and england did not last 100 years - it actually lasted longer, something like 116 years if I recall correctly - but there were breaks in between of up to 10 years… it’s still the same war, but the CAUSE of the conflicts evolved with time).
Completly irrelevant. War and conflict are such lose terms they can and can’t apply to this.
war ( P ) Pronunciation Key (wôr)
n.
A state of open, armed, often prolonged conflict carried on between nations, states, or parties.
The period of such conflict.
The techniques and procedures of war; military science.
A condition of active antagonism or contention: a war of words; a price war.
A concerted effort or campaign to combat or put an end to something considered injurious: the war against acid rain.
Just as peace is…
peace ( P ) Pronunciation Key (ps)
n.
The absence of war or other hostilities.
An agreement or a treaty to end hostilities.
Freedom from quarrels and disagreement; harmonious relations: roommates living in peace with each other.
Public security and order: was arrested for disturbing the peace.
Inner contentment; serenity: peace of mind.
It has no time requirement.
The Chechens need and want dialogue. It’s the Russians refusing it. If Chechens stop, they die. If Russians stop, there’s peace. That’s all I’m saying. There’s a way to dialogue, but it’s not the direction events are going to.
This is where you are getting in to murky waters. Baslayev and his hard-liners, do not want ot dialogue, they started waging war during that very short time of peace. So, under those circumstances, Russians died, when they stoped, but Im not trying to blame this on the chechens, Im just saying that your assumption is wrong.
Also, why do chechens die if they stop? If the Hard liners did stop, there would be a chechen state with Autonomy by now. (Autonomy was revoked in 1999 after Chechens resumed fighting outside of Chechenya and on Russian soil)
So under that terms the Chechens ended talks on their own. Again, Im not saying everything is their fault, Im just trying to show you the other side of the equasion. Now, because of this in the face of the Russian goverment they lost their credibility. And we overgeneralize when we say chechens, they are warlords all over the friggin place, and Baslayev one of the two most influential warlords, is a monster to say the least. With whom negotation is a perfect waste of time. (Plus recognizing him as a key figure within Chechney will give him recognition that will weaken Russias position and endanger it, especialy with that nut.
I’m sorry BR, but I don’t agree. You say those 2 wars are different, but I see them as one big mess, one big war, deteriorating as it goes. (and I blame Putin all the way, cause I’m a hard-*** mofo)
What about Aslan Maskhadov? I thought he was more open to dialogue than the others… Maskhadov is to Massud what Basayev is to Bin Laden… And Russia is to the USSR what Chechnya is to Afganistan…
In the end, I think we agree though. It’s one big mess and it’s not likely to stop anytime soon… 
Western nations have to put pressure to put an end to this. It’s our responsability not to permit other Beslan school sieges and the slaughter of Chechens (100k to 300k deaths - reminder).
That is what the US is doing in the war on terror, stoping more Beslans.
yeah, but what of the slaughter of Chechens? :evil:
And I don’t agree with your analysis. The US is doing a really bad job at “stoping more Beslans”.
[edit] actually, I’m taking this back. You’re not doing ANY job at stopping more Beslans. You’re trying to stop more 9/11s. If you were trying to stop more Beslans, you’d be talking to Putin or standing against the Chechens. But you’re doing none of the 2. [/edit]
Lets remember that Russia refused to be part of the coallition.
your point being?
