Salvation - Is it in you?

We’ve had this discussion Philbert :slight_smile:

I voted “None of the above, please explain your answer in your post without forcing debate.”

My idea of after life is this… Everything is made to help support the other. plants feed off of sunlight and soil, animals feed of plants and other animals (and people :evil: ), we feed off of other animals and plants also, well theres more detail to it, but I am not going to get into that.

Back to my point. I think we die, get buried, return to the soil which houses the plants, which feeds the animals, which feeds the people and then the cycle continues. I believe that the afterlife we have is continuing life on this planet so future generations of animals and people can survive.

It may sound corny, but part of me is strongly influenced by native american culture as my mom “is” native american (she can’t prove it, but it is something we don’t need to prove to ourselves).

No problem. I bet you I am the only one here that believes that though:)

I am interested in seeing how other people think too. I don’t think I was around when this subject was first started.

When I saw “no arguments” I couldn’t resist stating my opinion…

I personally think that the belief in an afterlife was invented so that people would treat each other in a socially acceptable way. Not a bad idea for its time.

It’s the zealots that feel that their salvation depends on how effective they are in converting people who haven’t accepted their path that have caused most of my search for truth.

Just my opinion…I respect all beliefs…Peace and Love to all…


I voted “none of the above” (of course Phil and I have discussed this already)…

…soul is one, matter is one, mind is one, all points are one, all time is one. Hell is real for those who believe in it.

When the time comes, I will be one again, with the beginning and the end, the alpha and omega. I will know all things and be all things at once. When that occures I will reinitiate my soul into matter again and start a second learning cycle. (I have no illusions that I am near enlightenment in this incarnation)

Lostinbeta ~ of course others believe what you believe. You’re belief is my logical first presumption. Given the lack of intellectual existance at the point of death in your system, I choose the budhist reincarnation method as a second possible, though less likely existance. I too have many Native American beliefs mixed into my own. They were a truely enlightened culture in my eyes.

Yes, I forgot to mention I do highly believe in souls and spirits. I don’t just think you die and that is the end of you. I believe your spirit lives on.

Very interesting beliefs david. I too sometimes believe in reincarnation, but other times I don’t, strange really, my mind wanders around too much.

I have a high belief in spirits and other realms and such too… Very high believer in the capabilities of the human mind, that we do not know of yet… or haven’t practised ourselves…

Although I have a hard time believing in God himself… mostly 'cause the bible doesn’t say a thing about dinosaurs, and we have solid proof they existed…

I dunno what th universe is, is it one big coincidence? Or what? Is there more to it than our universe? What are we missing here?

Anyway, I believe in some greater force that watches over us, but not one all mighty God…

It’s hard not to start a discussion here… :slight_smile:

there are other ideas than the judeo-christian heaven/hell and “no afterlife”. reincarnation for example. i believe there is a spiritual life force in all of us. i don’t think it goes off to a remote heaven or hell, nor do i believe it just ceases to exist. exactly what it does, i don’t exactly know, exactly. probably continues its activity of animating life forms. kind of a very loose reincarnation type believe i guess.

I believe in an ever precent life-force, or the cycle of everything together… very much influenced by Buhddist teachings, as well as many native tribes - not just native american, as you look at other cultures that survive off the land they tend to have similar beliefs too. The connectedness of everything and life as a sacrid force. How far all this goes into the divine… well that is something that I am often changing my mind on. Something that I believe in as a sort of maxium (something that should always hold true and be followed) is Peace, Love, Unity, and Respect for all people and things.

Good Poll by the way!

Oh and dosen’t a dinosaur walking around 4500 years ago conflict with current theories by like 60 million years? :cowboy:


Well… they just found a creature in China a few years ago which was thought extinct for hundred’s of thousands of years (or is it millions. I can’t remember) likewise, Sharks, Whales, Crocodiles, Aligators, and even the birds themselves are out of that age of Terra. It’s is entirely possible that a dinosaur could have continued to live and breed in isolated places on the planet. Likewise we are continualy reivaluating the age in which we believe all this to have occured. We continue to find evidence of man further and further back from when we thought it possible.

All things are possible when it comes to life and the Universe. As I’ve said to Phil in the past… there’s no way to prove that the entire Universe was not created twelve seconds ago, completely in tact and as we see it. All things are possible.

probable… now that’s another story of course… and one I wont touch on this board.

Sorry phil… but you know me. I have to counter.

Yes, the theory of dinosaurs 4500 years ago dumfounds everything we have all been taught. But nonetheless it is truth.

Nope. What you’re saying is just a theory as well… and STILL from what I’ve seen a less likely theory than the established one, despite all the holes which exist (and which I might add, most true scientists will admit exist as well)

I can also direct you to books that show human footprints along with dinosuars that have been claimed to be extinct for ‘millions’ of years.

Except that these prints as they exist have other explinations which you are failing to read about. The footprints have been found in other places besides those mentioned in any book I’ve read, as isolated scientificaly recreatable object lessons. Sometimes things look like one thing, but are not. And yes… I’ve been keenly aware of, interested in, and studied said foot prints for over 5 years now. I am not as convinced as you are.

Fact. Job described seeing a brontosaurous or an alliousaur or something of that family and order. With reasonable minds there is no doubt as to what he is describing. Is all I can say is that all you have been led to believe about dinosaurs is false. They are a most recent animal and certainly have not been extinct for millions of years. This is a lie the evolutionists want you to believe. Does this make you curious to know more? Let me know and I will gladly post more…By request only…

nice of you to say that it’s a lie when you don’t have real proof of it. We’ve discussed this over at your site Phil and I have yet to get any satisfactory reply about my last post. Namely, give me an example of ANY proof that you have and I will find a counter proof.
You can’t simply call people liars Phil without some sort of accountability… at least not if you want to be taken seriously with your theories.

I really doubt that I should even be taking this conversation this far here on Kirupa. I suggest that anyone who wishes to follow these threads and approach these subjects do so over at Phil’s forum. It’s a much more appropriate place for such things. In addition, the ezboard KIR (I believe it’s called Zetica now) is the opposition’s view on these subjects. If you’d like to see how both sides argue, I’d suggest both of those sites… if you still need more arguements then I will be happy to provide links to sites by Email only, to locations where such things are discussed.

lol… yes… but by saying something is fact you ARE making a false statement, even if you have ‘proof’.

As far as the dino’s are concerned, it is indeed proof for me. Yet, as you wish, I can substantiate anything I have said with written evidences amongst reasonable minds.

see… I find this kind of thing to be presumptuous and insulting (even if I know that you don’t mean it that way) You’re stating that anyone who disagrees with your findings is not a reasonable person. Being a very reasonable person in almost all cases, that simply doesn’t jive with me.

As for the research issue, you’re just plain wrong Phil. If you wish to make an arguement, the idea that “I’m not doing other people’s research for them” doesn’t hold watter. YOU are making an arguement, YOU provide the proofs, or you don’t make the arguement. If you do, then you’re just another Art Bell… a perveyor of half truths and miscalculated arguements. AND you are bound to fail in what you are attempting… namely to convince another of your theories. It IS your job to do the research for others if you want to convince someone of anything. Now I’m not talking about doing your own carbon dating to prove that the system we use is inaccurate. You may not have any skills in using radio isotopes in this way… but the research into other people’s findings on the subject is most certainly necessary.

I could say that there is definitive proof that a creature, alien to man, arrived here several million years ago and seeded our planet with the possibility of life, and in turn created the first image of man on earth. This FACT is well established and proved… the research information is out there if you simply look in the right place.

Just because I said that doesn’t make it real, and it doesn’t make me any great thinker. It doesn’t make the arguements pro or con, any stronger and it does not inspire anyone to bother looking for the details. Perhaps you are correct in that it is not your job to do the research… but it IS your job, if you want to convince anyone of anything, to inspire someone to look for that research. I’m sorry… but I just don’t find you to inspire me in that direction.

In addition, and in closing, I’ve told you before Phil… I have spent over 14 years now looking into these theories. I have some wild ones of my own. I HAVE done the research. I’m not here to tell you that you are wrong or right, but as a friend of yours (which I do consider myself) it is my job to tell you that your theories as I’ve seen them so far are not convincing to a reasonable mind. You’ll have to do better than that if you want people to bother looking for this information. I will say though that my own time spent researching information like this (esoteric) has been very fulfilling to me. I have learned things that I never would have encountered unless I was looking where the establishment told me not to bother looking. I think that everyone should look at and explore ancient cultures, history, and the holes in the theories that are spoon fed to us here in American schooling. The establishment DOES lie to us. That I can prove (beyond any reasonable doubt :wink: ). If you don’t like being lied to, as believe most people don’t, I recomend picking up “Lie’s my teacher told me” to start with. If that doesn’t convince you to at least EXPLORE the possibility that the established “line” is a load of crap… I don’t know what will.

I do believe in Ocham’s razor Phil. I believe it works. I suggest you use it on your own arguements before others do. It will help you to formulate convincing statements.

dinosaurs? i thought this was about salvation?

For some reason, everytime Phil and David begin a discussion about salvation, it ends up going to Evolution, and therefore dinosaurs. If you want interesting converstation check out the Corpus T Forums or More specifically, [URL=]Discussions on Evolution and Salvation The threads “What are they, where do they come from and what do they want?” and “General Discussion – Evolution vs. Creation” are filled with debates between Phil, David and myself and other random people that popped in from time to time.

Phil: Speaking of CorpusT, how is it going? (casually trying to change the subject…) Play nice with David, at least on this Forum…CorpusT is controversial anyway :stuck_out_tongue:

David: Play nice with Phil, we all know where this road leads… Try to not take offense, I know what you mean when Phil says things are FACT, that irks me too

originally posted by ME at CorpusT Forums…
**I actually agree with Uppy. And I’m glad that someone supports me on the whole ‘differentiation of the sexes’ thing. Also, the Polonium Halos…They are imbedded in Mica, an ignious rock, formed by the heating and cooling of magma…however, if there were an eruption of some sort and the Mica was thrown into a body or water, and it instantaneously solidified…the Polonium would be stuck inside, and thus the halos would be formed and would stay there…

The only thing that really annoys me, is that you are trying to say that things are solid fact, when really all you have is what some other people say and your own speculation. And it seems that the majority of your speculation is formed by your faith in your religion…

Eh, to each his own… **

I really need to get some free time so I can join back in the discussion on CorpusT (or start it up again) because I miss conversing with you boys. David, sometime over this Summer, I may be driving down in your area, if I do I’ll let you know and I’ll swing in for some good food :slight_smile:

Phil (again): I lost your address and I still have to send you that book. Could you e-mail me your address again? and i’ll send that book out by the end of the week… Jubba’s Email


so…if dinosaurs were around 4500 years ago, that would prove…?

Well… I was pretty much off my rocker last night anyway. I was having all sorts of frustration at work and it was carrying over onto my online conversations.

As was said… if we want to argue these fine points it should be done at CorpusT.

I still stand behind the idea that any arguement you make, even ones I agree with, I can provide good, solid counter arguements for. :slight_smile:

beer!!! blah… alcohol is terrible for you (this coming from a smoker :P)

I’m going to participate here even though it seems the thread is starting to get off topic. (LOL funny how everybody here, including me, always does that. Everyone just has so much to say!) Anyways, I’m sixteen, and growing up in a Christian household. My family and I probably go to church 2 sundays out of a month. I’ve always been taught the Bible, and about how when you die, if you have accepted God into your heart, then you will sit in the kingdom of heaven. If you live a life of sin, you will spend eternity in hell. A couple years ago, a science class of mine studied the beginnings of the earth, and all of the evidence that humans came from apes.

Wait? Look in the Bible! It says right there that God created man! Although I wasn’t too religious then, and still now, I wondered if that part of the Bible was wrong (if I took the evidence from class seriously) then how much of it was?

Since then, I’ve always had doubts about God and especially what happens after death. I fully believe there is a God, and I also believe in heaven and hell. But, I haven’t actually studied and wanted to learn more about spirituality, and I don’t really understand why I don’t. Listening to what all of you talk about though is very enlightening though, and perhaps I will start looking more into it soon.

Oh well, for the poll I checked:
Christ died for my sins, so therfore I am assured safe passage through death and will be welcomed into heaven because of this


Hey brad… didn’t know you were so young. I guess I should pay more attention. :stuck_out_tongue:

It’s good to see so many who do keep the faith. I personaly don’t expect many people to follow my path… my path is my own and no one elses… but it is nice to know that people so young have a path and that it leads them down the road to being good people.

As for the genesis accounts… well as I said to Phil, you’ll always have people on both sides of the fence (and I a few like me who are outside both fenced area) I wouldn’t worry too much about the proofs of either arguement. It isn’t really important if you believe the account to be reality or metaphoric… I’m sure that God, in his infinite wisdom would not trouble himself so over petty details… actions are what is truely important to both your fellow man, and to God.

besides it sounds like you attend church more often than the average person who claims Christ as his savior.